No thanks, it's your turn.
But we are talking about resistors. I have known several of the big international semi manufacturers to ship defective product and lie about it for months afterward. I have known it happen with electrolytic capacitors. But it has never happened with MF resistors. Where are you getting yours from? I suggest somewhere else might be better...
I like to think good management comes into it.
Hi Guys
Scott, carbon resistors do not require DC across them to exhibit their H2 and other distortions; just having signal voltage across them will suffice. You are no doubt reading guitar amp pages to have that belief (RG Keen is incomplete on the matter). I choose my components for reliability and performance, and design the circuits for the overall performance desired. Threw out all of my carbon resistors decades ago and use only MF.
Nige, look at figs. 6-44 and 6-45 in Self's APAD5 to see how THD varies with output power.
The only counterfeit parts I ever received were some snap-mount filter caps from a Chinese source. I asked for a Panasonic type and gave the specific number, was assured they could get it for a price that was about half that from the usual distributors. When they arrived, they looked and were marked as United Chemicon - a good brand - but UCC's site did not list such a part. Notably, UCC's site has a warning about counterfeits on their homepage. I tossed them since I could not be sure what they really were. I've used this supplier for many years and do not believe they knowingly secured counterfeits - they were just trying to offer an appealing price.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
Scott, carbon resistors do not require DC across them to exhibit their H2 and other distortions; just having signal voltage across them will suffice. You are no doubt reading guitar amp pages to have that belief (RG Keen is incomplete on the matter). I choose my components for reliability and performance, and design the circuits for the overall performance desired. Threw out all of my carbon resistors decades ago and use only MF.
Nige, look at figs. 6-44 and 6-45 in Self's APAD5 to see how THD varies with output power.
The only counterfeit parts I ever received were some snap-mount filter caps from a Chinese source. I asked for a Panasonic type and gave the specific number, was assured they could get it for a price that was about half that from the usual distributors. When they arrived, they looked and were marked as United Chemicon - a good brand - but UCC's site did not list such a part. Notably, UCC's site has a warning about counterfeits on their homepage. I tossed them since I could not be sure what they really were. I've used this supplier for many years and do not believe they knowingly secured counterfeits - they were just trying to offer an appealing price.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
There's no such thing as cheap genuine Japanese-brand caps in my experience - I've bought 'Sanyo' branded at a knock-down price here and found they were knock-offs. The marked voltage was way higher than the real rating and some exploded. However Chinese-made and branded caps can nevertheless be very decent value - 'Sancon' is one such I've been impressed with. Considerably cheaper than Japanese (Nichicon, Rubycon) and only slightly poorer ESR.
Sorry you are simply wrong, that's just thermodynamics and symmetry. Please these arguments have tediously gone on for years, why bother, there always seems to be a new wave of folks who think we must be deaf or idiots if these things are not just so obvious that anyone can tell.
Carbon comp are a thing of the past, you would have to seek them out, carbon film used at a small fraction of their rating have almost unmeasurable distortion and as I said for heat +1 V is as good as -1V to a blind man unless you have invented a new heat pump.
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Hi Guys
Scott, I was never talking about carbon comp - who would use such garbage in this century? I was referring to carbon film. I am not wrong in what I report. Just the facts no fiction or subjective BS about this issue.
Who said you are deaf? Who called you an idiot? YOU did it to yourself; not I nor anyone else here. All you can say is what applies to yourself, just as all I can say is what applies to myself. Neither of us can say what applies to anyone else. You can choose to disbelieve another person's statements, but their statement of their truth does not obviate what you deem to be true, nor is it an attack on you. Get some perspective and don't assume that a difference of opinion is a rejection of you.
Your avatar really does suite your sour demeanor. Prickle and Goo were secondary characters, and might even be underrated in their acting skill, but they were never happy so never appealing. Clay may be bogging you down. Even four-wheel drive is hopeless there.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
Scott, I was never talking about carbon comp - who would use such garbage in this century? I was referring to carbon film. I am not wrong in what I report. Just the facts no fiction or subjective BS about this issue.
Who said you are deaf? Who called you an idiot? YOU did it to yourself; not I nor anyone else here. All you can say is what applies to yourself, just as all I can say is what applies to myself. Neither of us can say what applies to anyone else. You can choose to disbelieve another person's statements, but their statement of their truth does not obviate what you deem to be true, nor is it an attack on you. Get some perspective and don't assume that a difference of opinion is a rejection of you.
Your avatar really does suite your sour demeanor. Prickle and Goo were secondary characters, and might even be underrated in their acting skill, but they were never happy so never appealing. Clay may be bogging you down. Even four-wheel drive is hopeless there.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
Get your boots on and wade through, as Jimi said blah blah woof woof. You report nothing but subjective BS. Make some technical arguments, pose some circuits to look at. You talk as if freedom from any technical constraint is necessary to make your point.
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Hi Guys
Scott, one fact for you then I will ignore your rhetoric:
Back in the 1970s Bryston used carbon film like most other manufacturers. Their circuit performance pushes the limits of state of the art measurement equipment, and always has. They found that even if the feedback resistor was the best carbon resistor available, its distortion swamped the rest of the circuit. At that point, they switched entirely to metal film, eliminating a whole class of distortions.
Live in a limited world or one with possibilities. I'm glad I'm not in yours. Bye.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
Scott, one fact for you then I will ignore your rhetoric:
Back in the 1970s Bryston used carbon film like most other manufacturers. Their circuit performance pushes the limits of state of the art measurement equipment, and always has. They found that even if the feedback resistor was the best carbon resistor available, its distortion swamped the rest of the circuit. At that point, they switched entirely to metal film, eliminating a whole class of distortions.
Live in a limited world or one with possibilities. I'm glad I'm not in yours. Bye.
Have fun
Kevin O'Connor
I have never encountered metal film caps from even known suspect internet sources to be so terrible as you suggest, even back in the 1960s, when IRH here, called their's "metal glaze" resistors with unheard of, guaranteed 1.5% tolerance. What I do see is a lot a hyperbola from uncompetitive manufacturers and boutique parts distributors trying to justify their high prices. That seems more credible than their quality claims, unless as DS suggests, your sources are charlatans with no concern for meeting customer expectations.
It seems normal that hobby supplies from Eastern Europe through to Pacific nations are awash with fake and low grade parts product of all kinds, according to many posts here. Perhaps this is the real basis of your claims.
FWIW, thru-hole carbon film resistors are made from long ceramic tubes, coated with carbon containing "paint" or spray to form a controlled, uniform coating in a select range of resistance values. These are baked, cut to length and leads/caps fitted. The final resistance values are then automatically trimmed by adjustable helical grooves cut into the film and finally a protective paint layer and colour bands applied.
Metal Oxide film resistors are much the same though MO powder is substituted for carbon but Metal Film types are formed by a coating of vapour deposited (sputtered) metal instead of a paint, slurry, spray of resistive film.
Composition resistors (Stackpole Process) are quite different. They are a moulded compound of powdered phenolic resin, powdered silica and powdered carbon-graphite, where resistance is set by formulation and hence no trimming option is possible, once it is sintered as a plastic, and remoulded with leads fitted inside its protective phenolic case.
This is all freely available info. on the web, manufacturer articles, papers and Wikis, if you want more.
IOW, trimming, film consistency and physical stability is what determines the fine tolerance of film resistor products. The trimming process is completely automated, so only an inept or careless manufacturer is going to output 3% tolerance parts when < 0.25% is routinely possible, assuming they do actually carry out the trimming step.
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It's always my turn, I do it anyway.
For everyday use, I buy them locally. For final form versions, I order them from Germany. But I still measure even those, just in case.
The comment on manufacturers is a distinct possibility, I agree. I've seen it myself on several occasions. Way back in the late 80ies, a friend and I were testing the then new IIT math coprocessor, the first ever not by Intel, and said to be compatible. We discovered that in Microsoft FORTRAN, its understanding of 0 and 1 was a moving target. We told IIT, they tried and seemingly got similar results, thanked us, and the next batch a few months later was fixed.
A very reputable IC manufacturer's very good audio op amp produced a consistent offset of 0.65V at its output, all 10 samples I had. The problem was fixed on the spot by connecting a 1N4148 diode from the output to -Vcc and the manufacturer was contacted. About 6 months later, the new batch no longer had the offset. Obviously, Graham Slee and I were pleased with that.(At the time, I was trying hard to get him off the NE op amps on to AD op amps).
So yes, such things do happen. And yes, we are talking about resistors, but if there are so many fakes coming from the Far East, why not resistors as well? They are easier to pass as the originals than just about any other component.
Oh, the local suppliers are trying hard to do their best, I'll give them that. But they are small fry in international terms, their purchasing power is low, and the dealers mostly from Singapore know this, so duds find their way to here. The last big bust were false Motorola/ON Semi transistors.
The management you refer to would be better aimed at the Chinese government; until they crack down hard on such low quality manufacturers inside China, there will be duds around the world, because everybody's local suppliers will succumb to the low, low prices sooner or later.
These graphs have been bugging me for years . A friend who owns a few Lyra pick-ups sent me some metal foil resistors which in quantity cost $8 a piece . He insisted I tried them . With a Lyra Helikon I usually use 47 K loading . In truth even 22R suits the Helikon fine . My preamp seems OK with the supersonic resonance of the Helikon . I sent on his preamp and was feeling I should treat myself to some Tyco foils . A bit of thinking got me to ask if carbon comp would work . The results were odd . Notice that CC is the quietest when the usual loadings people insist are best are used ( ??? ) ! This is shunted by 5 R coil resistance and 1.4 R arm cable ( 7R to a good approximation ) . About 3 db lost in the arm wires ! If the Helikon is removed science takes over and what you expect is seen . One guy says 845 R !!!
Sonically CC is dark . Like foil it has low inductance . I was hoping by shunt of the coil the CC would sound identical . Excellent would be true , yet too dark ( pink , 78 sound ) . $0.4 a piece 0.5 W . To be clear 22R and 47 K seem not too different . 22R sounds slightly less bright . CC 47K dull compared with 22R film !!! Again it must be a ghost in the machine . I just have the label wrong .
Comments from Scott and yourself are hitting home . We are now listening to resistors . How very odd , real Gaussian problems . These graphs were not for this forum and were just a quality check so do not read them as evidence . 2 stage RIAA using 3.5 nV op amp ( x 4 ) . Gain 1050 . So odd CC looks better and yet is casting it's shadow to my ears ! All these graphs were was to say I had checked . Conjecture is fine . Testing is required if holding an opinion . The outcome was to use film and do as radio constructors do , use resistors in inductive anti-phase . Placebo or not I do it now . The 56 db line means nothing , just a marker . About 72 dB by usually ways of saying it . I guess 84 dB might be possible if state of the art ( Dvv that's what I sent you ) .
An idea with Shure . Try vastly more than 47 K ( 1M ) . Then adjust EQ to restore . M44-7 might be the best pick up in the world as dynamic range is about > 3 dB superior to Helikon ( 7 db ? if using 3.5 nV op amp ? 5 R 700 uV 500 R 9500 uV , remember 1R4 cable resistance ) . Channel separation is it's handicap . I will buy a nice stylus for a 44-7 one day . I discovered this when building a mastering turntable for 78's ( Garrard clone ) . M 44-7 in SME 5 . We had a spare stylus for LP's and various 78 profiles including ball type . Preamp was modified Leak with all EQ types with two transistor buffer . The best sound I ever heard ? More or less true . I don't like the SME 5 usually ( nor Rega ) . This time I did . I am not fond of expensive Shures . V15 2 is good .
An op amp is a mini power amp so all of this translates into big amps . How very odd it matters outside of the world of silly 700 uV or 100 uV pick ups . I am working on this as I love the Ortofon SPU . A good transformer is outside of what most people can afford , they often get a SPU with lets say TD 124 and Ortofon arm ( yes please ) . The internal transformer of SPU is probably not worth keeping these days although the concept is virtuous in the extreme . This preamp was modified to gain 2000 . It sounded great with the Ortofon . Hiss was no worse than Naim of old with Linn Asak ( Supex ) . About like a Revox sans Dolby .
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dvv,
I am surprised that you experienced problems with resistors. In our country most electronic parts sellers are in fact ordering parts from big Western European (usually German) vendors like Farnell, Digikey, Nedis, Buerklin, Conrad, Schukat, Reichlin, etc. So, even if our importers do not inspect goods as they should, Germans are doing it for us! Only if somebody from the big Western European vendors is involved in fraudulent schemes, we could get such bad parts.
I am surprised that you experienced problems with resistors. In our country most electronic parts sellers are in fact ordering parts from big Western European (usually German) vendors like Farnell, Digikey, Nedis, Buerklin, Conrad, Schukat, Reichlin, etc. So, even if our importers do not inspect goods as they should, Germans are doing it for us! Only if somebody from the big Western European vendors is involved in fraudulent schemes, we could get such bad parts.
All my listening experiences confirm this 100%. Whenever is some form of distortion in one component lowered to extremely low values, other distortions jump in to dominate and what earlier passed unnoticed becomes immediately annoying.
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Vox Populi ( VP = VD ( Dei ) perhaps ? Margret Thatcher got that wrong . A small error no doubt ? Poor Mr Self . Filter this out and be sure a nugget is found for the next issue . Noise would be my vote ( I see the irony , Vox Pop including the singular = noise to some ) . Good or bad concerning transistor switching in class B ( dither ) . Is noise a friend ?
Discuss . 0.1 % class A good . 0.01% class B is equal ? Crude but has the bones of truth in it . Ghosts , not numbers . Ghosts are things which we are too lazy to look for . One of us will look and then we all seem wise overnight . I pointed this out last night that Paul never met Jesus as far as I know ( a guess just to bring my friend in line , I guessed right I think ) , same stuff ( Conjecture without good foundations ) . Slewing is like that . I don't like that church . Williamson said something like the jingling of keys exposes a distortion not yet named he was sure his amp didn't have . Using a separate cathode resistor for each KT 66 was a bad idea to him . He was 19 when he wrote that ?
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0.1 % costs $0.30 a piece . Why not ? For once the customer would be paying a little more for circuit compared with the metal box . 5% CF measure all 215K when 220K . All others about the same of other values . All under read ( no , not me holding them ) ! 2.4 % typical . 1% all OK .
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