'Caps make no difference' is not analogous to 'wires make no difference'.
Given the poor value tolerance of most caps and the slightly non-linear dielectric of a few types comboned with poor circuit design it is quite possible that a cap change could cause a minor inconsequential sound change. The change will be smaller with better designed electronics, of course.
As AndrewT says, it can depend on what the cap is being used for. The most sensitive place is where the cap is being used in a filter with a significant signal voltage across it e.g. a crossover.
Given the poor value tolerance of most caps and the slightly non-linear dielectric of a few types comboned with poor circuit design it is quite possible that a cap change could cause a minor inconsequential sound change. The change will be smaller with better designed electronics, of course.
As AndrewT says, it can depend on what the cap is being used for. The most sensitive place is where the cap is being used in a filter with a significant signal voltage across it e.g. a crossover.
film caps, polypro capacitors, polypropylene
For those who, like me, find non-polarized film caps to be a simple, safe way to help guarantee good life and trouble free performance of power supplies, amps and preamps...
Film Caps keep improving because of technology advance and the markets for switching power supplies and high speed digital electronics. In addition to the active surplus market I'm finding good polypros from old reliable vendors like Illinois Capacitor, which has just introduced new product lines...
Film Products
Note that I said they were improving... Not getting cheaper.
For those who, like me, find non-polarized film caps to be a simple, safe way to help guarantee good life and trouble free performance of power supplies, amps and preamps...
Film Caps keep improving because of technology advance and the markets for switching power supplies and high speed digital electronics. In addition to the active surplus market I'm finding good polypros from old reliable vendors like Illinois Capacitor, which has just introduced new product lines...
Film Products
Note that I said they were improving... Not getting cheaper.
There is nothing mystical about that. My point is if it makes a difference, you can measure the difference, and you can understand why it made the difference. Changing 20 years old electrolitics is such a thing.
I agree that there is more than enough horsepoopy in high-end audio, but I really wonder about the guys who claim that more technically accurate capacitors or other components make no difference over mundane ones.
So you can't hear it, fine, but why would you publicly brag about your shortcomings?
So you can't hear it, fine, but why would you publicly brag about your shortcomings?
Whether something makes a difference doesn't just depend on what it is, but also on how it is used. Some circuit positions are more critical than others; some circuits are better designed than others. Putting a 'more technically accurate capacitor' into a non-critical position in a well-designed circuit may make no difference to the sound. If someone does not realise this, why would they brag about their shortcomings?
psychoacoustic lossy compression shows you can "toss out" >80% of the Shannon-Hartley information in stereo CD waveforms and few can tell with modern tunings, good codecs (20% of Redbook is >256kb) - even then only on a few killer samples
so why would you think that any human's hearing is all that acute?
so why would you think that any human's hearing is all that acute?
I still prefer film/foil caps where applicable. They measure well, they come in pretty tight tolerances,
they are reliable, they don't age and most often they don't cost an arm and a leg. Sound quality is at
least no reason to lie awake at night.
To me the only downside is capacitance/volume ratio. Unfortunately too often this is the crunchpoint.
If I can hear the difference in every circuit position? Certainly I can't. I feel better though. Nothing
else matters (at least to me).
they are reliable, they don't age and most often they don't cost an arm and a leg. Sound quality is at
least no reason to lie awake at night.
To me the only downside is capacitance/volume ratio. Unfortunately too often this is the crunchpoint.
If I can hear the difference in every circuit position? Certainly I can't. I feel better though. Nothing
else matters (at least to me).
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Fact or fiction??
Well it looks like we are in the market of selling snake oil - I have been in the capacitor manufacturing business for more than 25 years - that's right m-a-n-u-f-a-c-t-u-r-i-n-g, not mark and re-sale. I do agree in part that many claims are not easily substantiated by science. That said, to pass off "all capacitors are created equal" is pretty naive.
There are many manufacturing techniques that can effect electrical and physical properties of film capacitors, combine that with material variations, and the iterations are endless.
We recently sold a range of capacitors to a well known company so that they could perform electrical evaluations, followed up by "sound" tests. I can't disclose the company or the findings as they are not public. I can tell you that all of these were the same value (tight tolerance +-2%) and results were staggering.
For example - take .22 uf capacitor used in a snubber circuit. I could manufacture 10 different parts with the exact same value (+-1%) and the electrical characteristics would be all over the spectrum.
Lets start with dielectrics - common dielectrics are polypropylene, polyester, paper, polycarbonate (obsolete), polystyrene (obsolete), PTFE, PEN, & PPS. Any of these can be combined with each other, then in different ratios within the same capacitor. This has an effect on insulation resistance, dissipation factor, equivalent series resistance and dielectric absorption.
The electrode also has an effect on the electrical characteristics - Metalized vs. foil, then the type of foil. Lets toss in the termination to the capacitor section itself, and the possible variations are mind boggling. Just for the heck of it, let start changing the diameter to length ratio and see what happens.
I would say not all capacitors are created equal. I didn't even mention different manufacturing techniques.
Cheers
Well it looks like we are in the market of selling snake oil - I have been in the capacitor manufacturing business for more than 25 years - that's right m-a-n-u-f-a-c-t-u-r-i-n-g, not mark and re-sale. I do agree in part that many claims are not easily substantiated by science. That said, to pass off "all capacitors are created equal" is pretty naive.
There are many manufacturing techniques that can effect electrical and physical properties of film capacitors, combine that with material variations, and the iterations are endless.
We recently sold a range of capacitors to a well known company so that they could perform electrical evaluations, followed up by "sound" tests. I can't disclose the company or the findings as they are not public. I can tell you that all of these were the same value (tight tolerance +-2%) and results were staggering.
For example - take .22 uf capacitor used in a snubber circuit. I could manufacture 10 different parts with the exact same value (+-1%) and the electrical characteristics would be all over the spectrum.
Lets start with dielectrics - common dielectrics are polypropylene, polyester, paper, polycarbonate (obsolete), polystyrene (obsolete), PTFE, PEN, & PPS. Any of these can be combined with each other, then in different ratios within the same capacitor. This has an effect on insulation resistance, dissipation factor, equivalent series resistance and dielectric absorption.
The electrode also has an effect on the electrical characteristics - Metalized vs. foil, then the type of foil. Lets toss in the termination to the capacitor section itself, and the possible variations are mind boggling. Just for the heck of it, let start changing the diameter to length ratio and see what happens.
I would say not all capacitors are created equal. I didn't even mention different manufacturing techniques.
Cheers
One more example of something that no-one ever said. Rationalists would, however, say that differences between capacitors are in basic engineering parameters, and as far as performance goes (putting aside fashion and psychology), basic engineering will determine the best type or types to use and what measurable parameters matter for a given application. That's what separates snake oil cap peddlers from ethical manufacturers or marketers.
I would be interested to hear your opinion of what makes the best industrial cap different from 'audio grade' caps ?
funny to notice that even Bourns, Vishay etc use the term 'audio grade' on some of their ordinary small plastic attenuator pots
also noticed that 'military grade' is still being used
unfortunately some true manufacturers market as "audio" and there is nothing different between the commercial (or military) and audio. There are many snake oil mfg's out there, but then again there are many true mfg's.
I can tell you Arizona Capacitors has a complete line of true audio grade capacitors that have specific techniques involved during the manufacturing. Most industrial grade capacitors are manufactured using down and dirty materials and assembly techniques. There are many "techniques" that I can't disclose (sorry trade secrets), however I can tell you that all of the audio caps at Az-cap are manufactured by hand and not mass assembled.
Just like automobiles, there is a different style car/truck for everyone out there - and just about as many audio capacitors. We offer various types/styles because everyone's application is not the same.
I can tell you Arizona Capacitors has a complete line of true audio grade capacitors that have specific techniques involved during the manufacturing. Most industrial grade capacitors are manufactured using down and dirty materials and assembly techniques. There are many "techniques" that I can't disclose (sorry trade secrets), however I can tell you that all of the audio caps at Az-cap are manufactured by hand and not mass assembled.
Just like automobiles, there is a different style car/truck for everyone out there - and just about as many audio capacitors. We offer various types/styles because everyone's application is not the same.
This is not a positive!
By the way, if you want to promote your business, we have a Vendors' forum where commercial postings are allowed. Doing so in the main part of the forum is a no-no.
do your workers wear bunny suits with face masks? finger cots?
is you production floor lint free and your air conditioning equipped with HEPA filters?
What, besides adding cost and increasing unit-unit variation, does hand-assembly of commodity electrical parts (capacitors) do?
workers chatting while winding adds their saliva to the caps, and that could very well be the magic oil......I think you just coined a new word!
When two crappy things are put together and the result isn't just an addition of their crappiness but ... a multiplication, or maybe even exponential! They are comboned!
A combo that bones ya!
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