D_Dubya said:
I forgot to answer this question. I will use my subs with any speakers I use. I like the ability to hear and feel the very low frequencies when ever possible. I'll probably have on my grave the quote "Need more bass".
I also have a very large living room and my subs fill it very nicely.Mike
don't feel bad, My little drivers are unlistenable without my pair of 15s.
I use some high reaching 15s with an 80hz fmod that rolls at 6db (people said) or 12db (manufactorer)..........
A loudness button helps fill in some baffle step and Fletcher-Munson curve lack of bass at low volumes on the full rangers.
The only problem is sometimes I want to crank it.
I have to hook up an active crossover to limit full range excursion and push woofers to 200hz.
But then it sounds like sheet at low to medium volumes.
Then out goes the crossover after a day......................
If I remember correctly, for the a3 drivers, a sealed qtc .707 had an f3 of around 140hz. And without baffle step, your boxes probably are 3db down near 500-600hz. A quick rule of thumb is the f3 of the baffle step frequency is 4,560 / (width in inchs). Using a 10 band equalizer I found this formula is basically spot on.
But I am glad you went the dual driver route.
I'm tempted to go up from 2 driver to a 9 driver with the same drivers I have now.
By the time I get a special box made and delivered, I don't want to gamble on drivers I've never heard before.
For full range drivers, I find 24db @ 200hz to be ideal.
150hz @ 24db is also do able but more strained than 200hz.
Norman
I use some high reaching 15s with an 80hz fmod that rolls at 6db (people said) or 12db (manufactorer)..........
A loudness button helps fill in some baffle step and Fletcher-Munson curve lack of bass at low volumes on the full rangers.
The only problem is sometimes I want to crank it.
I have to hook up an active crossover to limit full range excursion and push woofers to 200hz.
But then it sounds like sheet at low to medium volumes.
Then out goes the crossover after a day......................
If I remember correctly, for the a3 drivers, a sealed qtc .707 had an f3 of around 140hz. And without baffle step, your boxes probably are 3db down near 500-600hz. A quick rule of thumb is the f3 of the baffle step frequency is 4,560 / (width in inchs). Using a 10 band equalizer I found this formula is basically spot on.
But I am glad you went the dual driver route.
I'm tempted to go up from 2 driver to a 9 driver with the same drivers I have now.
By the time I get a special box made and delivered, I don't want to gamble on drivers I've never heard before.
For full range drivers, I find 24db @ 200hz to be ideal.
150hz @ 24db is also do able but more strained than 200hz.
Norman
Attachments
nasty 8.2khz spike there..................
I'm debating between the TB w3-593sf and the tc9.
The tang band has .5mm xmax but the air gap is 6mm long, while the tc9 has 3mm xmax but only 3mm air gap (thats a lot of coil hanging out !!!!!!!!!!)
My gut feeling is that the 593sf will be cleaner due to more gap (underhung or close to it) versus the tc9 with a copper cap that reduces distortion, but you still have 2/3 of the coil hanging outside the gap opposed to 1/6 in the TB.
The peerless 2" ones are templing but they were availiable from Madisound and I assume parts express is blowing them out.
The w2-800sl has high praise in Japan but a 140hz fs with .23 qts for $16.40 in 4+ quantities, sealed f3 would be in the 350hz region...................... That'd be crossing higher than I'd like. I need sound 12' away, not a nearfield listener.
http://translate.google.com/transla...earch?q=%2B%22W2-800SL%22&hl=en&sa=N&start=30
I assume measurements are very very close, I notice no loss off bas sin my OB tester 1' from it.
Norman
I'm debating between the TB w3-593sf and the tc9.
The tang band has .5mm xmax but the air gap is 6mm long, while the tc9 has 3mm xmax but only 3mm air gap (thats a lot of coil hanging out !!!!!!!!!!)
My gut feeling is that the 593sf will be cleaner due to more gap (underhung or close to it) versus the tc9 with a copper cap that reduces distortion, but you still have 2/3 of the coil hanging outside the gap opposed to 1/6 in the TB.
The peerless 2" ones are templing but they were availiable from Madisound and I assume parts express is blowing them out.
The w2-800sl has high praise in Japan but a 140hz fs with .23 qts for $16.40 in 4+ quantities, sealed f3 would be in the 350hz region...................... That'd be crossing higher than I'd like. I need sound 12' away, not a nearfield listener.
http://translate.google.com/transla...earch?q=%2B%22W2-800SL%22&hl=en&sa=N&start=30
I assume measurements are very very close, I notice no loss off bas sin my OB tester 1' from it.
Norman
Time to spin the tunes...
Finally fnished my mini-array of 4 Audience A3s drivers per side in a floorstander. I've now built and spent listening time with 4 iterations of these drivers, from a single driver mini-monitor all the way up to their current iteration.
Each added driver enhanced the sound and made for a better listening experience, these A3 drivers are simply addicting. I always figured I would get to an array of 4 per side as time and funds allowed and I finally made it. My only change was at the last minute when buying materials, I opted for a tower instead of a largish monitor cabinet.
Finally fnished my mini-array of 4 Audience A3s drivers per side in a floorstander. I've now built and spent listening time with 4 iterations of these drivers, from a single driver mini-monitor all the way up to their current iteration.
Each added driver enhanced the sound and made for a better listening experience, these A3 drivers are simply addicting. I always figured I would get to an array of 4 per side as time and funds allowed and I finally made it. My only change was at the last minute when buying materials, I opted for a tower instead of a largish monitor cabinet.
Attachments
Internal Volume?
Nice! Did you block off part of the tower to reduce the cabinet's volume? What did you end up with in total liters?
They are indeed addicting. I'm now sometimes using both my A3 cabinets and my mains at the same time by having the A & B switches turned on at the same time. I do this when listening to music at day's end.
Nice! Did you block off part of the tower to reduce the cabinet's volume? What did you end up with in total liters?
They are indeed addicting. I'm now sometimes using both my A3 cabinets and my mains at the same time by having the A & B switches turned on at the same time. I do this when listening to music at day's end.
Internal cabinet volume for the 4 drivers is 10L sealed. I have the cabinet sectioned off into upper and lower chambers in case I wish to add a woofer in the future. For now I'll use that to mass load the cabinets and leave low base up to the subwoofer.
Only thing left to do at this point is fine tune the amount of cabinet stuffing material.
Only thing left to do at this point is fine tune the amount of cabinet stuffing material.
Woofer?
Good thinking.....
If you want to keep the cabinet completely Audience with the fantastic XBL2 technology, we will be offering a 5", 6", & 8" Audience woofer with an expected release date of around August 1st.
I have no specs on them yet.
AVGuide.com has just published a review of the A3s made by Robert Harley, a very distinguished high end audio specialist with many credits to his record.
http://www.avguide.com/blog/the-audience-clairaudient-loudspeaker—-20-year-dream-realized
This link is to Vance Dickason's recent review in the Voice Coil Magazine about these great drivers:
http://www.speakerhobby.com/Voice-Coil.pdf
Great choice on your tower!
Mike
Good thinking.....
If you want to keep the cabinet completely Audience with the fantastic XBL2 technology, we will be offering a 5", 6", & 8" Audience woofer with an expected release date of around August 1st.
I have no specs on them yet.
AVGuide.com has just published a review of the A3s made by Robert Harley, a very distinguished high end audio specialist with many credits to his record.
http://www.avguide.com/blog/the-audience-clairaudient-loudspeaker—-20-year-dream-realized
This link is to Vance Dickason's recent review in the Voice Coil Magazine about these great drivers:
http://www.speakerhobby.com/Voice-Coil.pdf
Great choice on your tower!
Mike
>>> don't feel bad, My little drivers are unlistenable without my pair of 15s.
Hi Norman, i also enjoy a pair of 15 inch bass drivers with my pretty large BIBs... rumbles my bones better than a nice 12 inch i used to employ for the same task. I think once you go with dual 15 inch drivers you're 'addicted'.... probably until you try dual 18s.
Wanted to point out my sealed subs never quite integrated properly with the full range drivers i've used. OB woofers sound faster and fuller to my ears when powered by a dedicated amp.
And of course i am curious how these Audience sound compared to the TB offerings out there. For example, would 8 TBs per side outperform 4 Audience?
Godzilla
Hi Norman, i also enjoy a pair of 15 inch bass drivers with my pretty large BIBs... rumbles my bones better than a nice 12 inch i used to employ for the same task. I think once you go with dual 15 inch drivers you're 'addicted'.... probably until you try dual 18s.
Wanted to point out my sealed subs never quite integrated properly with the full range drivers i've used. OB woofers sound faster and fuller to my ears when powered by a dedicated amp.
And of course i am curious how these Audience sound compared to the TB offerings out there. For example, would 8 TBs per side outperform 4 Audience?
Godzilla
8 tb beat the 4 audience a3?
hmm.................
I think you'd have to compare equal sized frames............
More drivers would help compared to 4 audience a3's but then you'd get more combing also.
Some people don't mind combing..............
Cone area is cone area, but the a3 does have 6mm xmax compared to most other 3" having around 3mm. And I have no idea of the voice coil's length (a big factor too). The tb w3-871s had the same bass as a b3s (tb having .5mm xmax while b3s had 3mm xmax).
The lsa 2+2 or 4+4, I assume has half running wide open and other half for baffle step or maybe a 6db filter between the 2 groups, that's what I'd do to offset combing.
And I'd want a notch filter for the a3's sillibance region.
Then again, the less dispersion of a 3" will make for less combing interaction from drivers further away than the drivers closest to you.
It would only be fair to compare it to other full rangers out there.
But 8 of them would break my bank for an experiment (even 4).
I just ordered 17 hivi b3s and the components for zaph's notch filter for them. 16 of those in a focused array, yea baby, and they didn't cost much either !!!!!!
Norman
hmm.................
I think you'd have to compare equal sized frames............
More drivers would help compared to 4 audience a3's but then you'd get more combing also.
Some people don't mind combing..............
Cone area is cone area, but the a3 does have 6mm xmax compared to most other 3" having around 3mm. And I have no idea of the voice coil's length (a big factor too). The tb w3-871s had the same bass as a b3s (tb having .5mm xmax while b3s had 3mm xmax).
The lsa 2+2 or 4+4, I assume has half running wide open and other half for baffle step or maybe a 6db filter between the 2 groups, that's what I'd do to offset combing.
And I'd want a notch filter for the a3's sillibance region.
Then again, the less dispersion of a 3" will make for less combing interaction from drivers further away than the drivers closest to you.
It would only be fair to compare it to other full rangers out there.
But 8 of them would break my bank for an experiment (even 4).
I just ordered 17 hivi b3s and the components for zaph's notch filter for them. 16 of those in a focused array, yea baby, and they didn't cost much either !!!!!!
Norman
mfishmike,
Hmm...Audience woofers, now thats interesting. My thoughts with my towers would be to find a woofer close enough to the 4 A3s specs that could be integrated with as few crossover components as possible on the woofer only.
Godzilla,
Regarding a comparison of the A3s to the TBs, I've only heard a 4" titanium cone version (not sure which model) as a single driver in a tapered horn tower. I prefer the Audience drivers, and by a considerable margin too.
Hmm...Audience woofers, now thats interesting. My thoughts with my towers would be to find a woofer close enough to the 4 A3s specs that could be integrated with as few crossover components as possible on the woofer only.
Godzilla,
Regarding a comparison of the A3s to the TBs, I've only heard a 4" titanium cone version (not sure which model) as a single driver in a tapered horn tower. I prefer the Audience drivers, and by a considerable margin too.
oops, I was wrong.
the Lsa 4+4, the +4 means it has 4 drivers on the side (back) used as a dipole.
I think the dual air gap is interesting on the a3, I've looked closely at their huge xmax subs that are relatively inexpensive.
I noticed that one of the articles linked mentioned a rising response on the a3 driver. That plus baffle step would help offset combing.
I'd love to hear them (an a3 short array).
or even 1 driver vs. 2 drivers vs. 4 drivers
I think d dubya has it right with his dual setup versus the 2+2 prototype by Audience (wide distance between drivers). I'm all for a dual driver setup.
Aluminum/magnesium seems to be a good combination nowadays ............
Norman
the Lsa 4+4, the +4 means it has 4 drivers on the side (back) used as a dipole.
I think the dual air gap is interesting on the a3, I've looked closely at their huge xmax subs that are relatively inexpensive.
I noticed that one of the articles linked mentioned a rising response on the a3 driver. That plus baffle step would help offset combing.
I'd love to hear them (an a3 short array).
or even 1 driver vs. 2 drivers vs. 4 drivers
I think d dubya has it right with his dual setup versus the 2+2 prototype by Audience (wide distance between drivers). I'm all for a dual driver setup.
Aluminum/magnesium seems to be a good combination nowadays ............
Norman
D_Dubya said:
D_Dubya--That's why I though I would mention them to you at this stage of your build. As soon as I can get some pre-release information, I'll let you know. You should be comfortable knowing these woofers will be from the same company and have the same XBL2 tech & build quality of the A3s. A simple filter should integrate the drivers very well!
I haven't heard the TBs, but I would guess the comparison between the build quality of these drivers would be like comparing a Dodge to a Rolls Royce. TB would have to ask much more money for their drivers if they were near the quality of the A3s.
My 2 cents...
Hi guys! Just found this thread yesterday.
I've got a pair of these to play with several weeks ago.
My measurements coinsided with Vance's and manufacturer's specs (both T/S and FR) pretty closely - I'm impressed. BTW, Fs is around 70Hz, not 140 as somebody here said. If you mount mine into .85l box, you will get 130 Hz resonance wuth Q=.7.
First I put them in 3.2 l closed boxes (used the same for Zap's HiVi 3b). First day was horrible, by the end of the week they started to play music. Then I ported them and tuned to 65 Hz. I'm runing singe driver per side. The base is pretty impressive, the mid and highs are OK. Something definitelly has to be done about the peak around 7-8kHz. The one on the very top is OK with me, just stay a bit off axis. It actually helps with power response, I think.
I have a pair of HiVi 3B, similar to Zap's, but with a little less baffle compensation. I'd say they are pretty comparable if you match the volumes, but I stil have not run them exactly side-by-side. I'll do that soon. I also have a pair of TangBand TB-1231SH in small MLTLs of my own design. TBs don't have the 8 kHz peak and assosiated shout on female voices and are generally smoother. However, they also are less involving to listen to and low end is significantly weaker.
As for subwoofers, I dont think it's as much important if they are a closed box or open baffle. What is important is the Q-factor. Tune your closed box to Q=.5 (may result in BIG box) and it will be very easy to integrate with these little things. Put a woofer with the Q=1.0 in an open baffle and integration will be a problem.
My solution - I use the Linkwitz transform and can change the Q on the fly to my liking.
Once I do more with these drivers - I'll report here.
VadimB
Hi guys! Just found this thread yesterday.
I've got a pair of these to play with several weeks ago.
My measurements coinsided with Vance's and manufacturer's specs (both T/S and FR) pretty closely - I'm impressed. BTW, Fs is around 70Hz, not 140 as somebody here said. If you mount mine into .85l box, you will get 130 Hz resonance wuth Q=.7.
First I put them in 3.2 l closed boxes (used the same for Zap's HiVi 3b). First day was horrible, by the end of the week they started to play music. Then I ported them and tuned to 65 Hz. I'm runing singe driver per side. The base is pretty impressive, the mid and highs are OK. Something definitelly has to be done about the peak around 7-8kHz. The one on the very top is OK with me, just stay a bit off axis. It actually helps with power response, I think.
I have a pair of HiVi 3B, similar to Zap's, but with a little less baffle compensation. I'd say they are pretty comparable if you match the volumes, but I stil have not run them exactly side-by-side. I'll do that soon. I also have a pair of TangBand TB-1231SH in small MLTLs of my own design. TBs don't have the 8 kHz peak and assosiated shout on female voices and are generally smoother. However, they also are less involving to listen to and low end is significantly weaker.
As for subwoofers, I dont think it's as much important if they are a closed box or open baffle. What is important is the Q-factor. Tune your closed box to Q=.5 (may result in BIG box) and it will be very easy to integrate with these little things. Put a woofer with the Q=1.0 in an open baffle and integration will be a problem.
My solution - I use the Linkwitz transform and can change the Q on the fly to my liking.
Once I do more with these drivers - I'll report here.
VadimB
mfishmike said:
I do beleive that TB is capable... this pair of TB 3" i have is an example of their best.
I've yet to see a decent picture of the Audience basket, but from the ones i've seen they reminded me of this driver.
More here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8054
Some chinese OEM is building the Audience & TB, having done drivers for Dan before, would be on a short-list of guesses who.
dave
um, the a3 has 6mm xmax, 12mm xmax peak to peak.
Lets not go around saying it has 12mm xmax.
That'd have more xmax than the 18's I had..............
Granted my 18's had a coil longer than the a3 assembly.
If I remember correctly, it really had 2mm xmax (+2 to -2) then distortion skyrocketed........
Like I'd already said, the hivi b3s had the same bass volume as the tang band w3-871s (3mm vs .5mm). Honestly, I'm not a fan of mucho coil hanging out of the gap.
Norman
Lets not go around saying it has 12mm xmax.
That'd have more xmax than the 18's I had..............
Granted my 18's had a coil longer than the a3 assembly.
If I remember correctly, it really had 2mm xmax (+2 to -2) then distortion skyrocketed........
Like I'd already said, the hivi b3s had the same bass volume as the tang band w3-871s (3mm vs .5mm). Honestly, I'm not a fan of mucho coil hanging out of the gap.
Norman
norman bates said:
Norman.....Agreed...I should have put in peak to peak....
I'm assuming you are talking about the subwoofers showing distortion at (+2 to-2) and not the A3's.
Audience had it right with this driver. The looks may not be what one normally sees in a typical driver. That, along with the whole design including the patented surround and the powerful magnet structure which was designed for a much larger speaker, and the cone is what makes this driver so unique. As can be read by Dubya's posts, they are awesome!
I've invited Dave over to listen to them, but he's over a 1/2 continent away and won't take the time to come over. He would be pleasantly surprised, and so would you.
Mike
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.