And it sounds like ???????????????
It sounds different from xxxxx driver, how ?
Any baffle step ?
With this many views, more than a few people are curious.........
I guarantee a 2 driver setup like yours will sound better than 1 driver.
To me you have to do a shootout of a 2 driver array vs. 4 driver array setup.
I'd be hesitant of a 4 driver array due to the 84mm frame.
I'd like to hear a 4 or 8 driver flat array setup without having to build one.
Norman
It sounds different from xxxxx driver, how ?
Any baffle step ?
With this many views, more than a few people are curious.........
I guarantee a 2 driver setup like yours will sound better than 1 driver.
To me you have to do a shootout of a 2 driver array vs. 4 driver array setup.
I'd be hesitant of a 4 driver array due to the 84mm frame.
I'd like to hear a 4 or 8 driver flat array setup without having to build one.
Norman
I got the other speaker done last night as well.
You'll notice the gold colored screws, which are just temporary until I permanently mount them. Also internal wiring was whatever I had around, Radio Shack 18 gauge I believe, and just secured over the terminals and not soldered. No filters of any kind at this point and only a hand full of damping material. All this just to say its a temporary set up...I wanted to listen
I did have a single driver in the cabinet at one point and played some music via i-pod and a Sony receiver in mono. I always do this to make sure when I put things in my primary system nothing starts to smoke. This sound was uninspiring at the kitchen table and I started to second guess myself. Useful as a desktop computer monitor I thought, but I want high end monitor type performance.
With the second driver installed things got better, vocals had real energy and presence now. Vertical dispersion is pretty narrow, the highs drop off quickly with your ears above or below listening axis. Still Sony receiver and i-pod in mono at this point.
Finished up the second speaker real late, tested it out and moved both into my main system (Pass Labs / Balanced Audio / VPI Scoutmaster front end).
As expected things got much better here. I only got to play a single side of an LP (Ray Lamontagne Turn in Black) at low levels but it sounded promising.
Better high frequencies, broader soundstage and more inner detail than my single CSS FR125s.
I'll post more later tonight once I have a chance to listen more, and at a more reasonable volume.
You'll notice the gold colored screws, which are just temporary until I permanently mount them. Also internal wiring was whatever I had around, Radio Shack 18 gauge I believe, and just secured over the terminals and not soldered. No filters of any kind at this point and only a hand full of damping material. All this just to say its a temporary set up...I wanted to listen
I did have a single driver in the cabinet at one point and played some music via i-pod and a Sony receiver in mono. I always do this to make sure when I put things in my primary system nothing starts to smoke. This sound was uninspiring at the kitchen table and I started to second guess myself. Useful as a desktop computer monitor I thought, but I want high end monitor type performance.
With the second driver installed things got better, vocals had real energy and presence now. Vertical dispersion is pretty narrow, the highs drop off quickly with your ears above or below listening axis. Still Sony receiver and i-pod in mono at this point.
Finished up the second speaker real late, tested it out and moved both into my main system (Pass Labs / Balanced Audio / VPI Scoutmaster front end).
As expected things got much better here. I only got to play a single side of an LP (Ray Lamontagne Turn in Black) at low levels but it sounded promising.
Better high frequencies, broader soundstage and more inner detail than my single CSS FR125s.
I'll post more later tonight once I have a chance to listen more, and at a more reasonable volume.
I like your report
D_Dubya,
Although there has been a lot of controversy over the use of expensive interconnect wire, I used the Auric #21 gauge and good solder with some silver in it. Audience has introduced the OHNO wire as well which is even better, but carries a price tag of $6.00/ft. It's all about how much you want to put into your speaker design. (I don't want to start a debate over interconnect wire because it belongs in a new thread and gets very opposing opionions when I popped a question. I went through this in another forum.)
I was so impressed with the Auric wire, I bought another 140' of the wire to rewire my mains and center speaker and have some left over for stock. After rewiring my center speaker, I noticed a marked improvement in overall sound quality. I'm anxious to re-wire my mains now. When I rebuild my next pair of Bang & Olufsen Redline 60s, I'm going to use the better wire in it as well.
Norman,
You showed some concern about using four or more drivers because of the 84 mm frame. With these drivers you won't have any combing issues with them mounted like D_Dubya and I have with the drivers mounted next to each other. The cones are so close to each other. I think that may be your concern.
Audience's ClairAudient line arrays with the Bandors, which aren't as good as the A3s, have been quite successful with up to a 24 driver array, and have no combing problems.
D_Dubya,
Although there has been a lot of controversy over the use of expensive interconnect wire, I used the Auric #21 gauge and good solder with some silver in it. Audience has introduced the OHNO wire as well which is even better, but carries a price tag of $6.00/ft. It's all about how much you want to put into your speaker design. (I don't want to start a debate over interconnect wire because it belongs in a new thread and gets very opposing opionions when I popped a question. I went through this in another forum.)
I was so impressed with the Auric wire, I bought another 140' of the wire to rewire my mains and center speaker and have some left over for stock. After rewiring my center speaker, I noticed a marked improvement in overall sound quality. I'm anxious to re-wire my mains now. When I rebuild my next pair of Bang & Olufsen Redline 60s, I'm going to use the better wire in it as well.
Norman,
You showed some concern about using four or more drivers because of the 84 mm frame. With these drivers you won't have any combing issues with them mounted like D_Dubya and I have with the drivers mounted next to each other. The cones are so close to each other. I think that may be your concern.
Audience's ClairAudient line arrays with the Bandors, which aren't as good as the A3s, have been quite successful with up to a 24 driver array, and have no combing problems.
Combing
Dave, you posted on the 4 driver array and combing at one of my other forums I have a thread started. You were using the Griffens paper example. Here is your cut and pasted quote:
"With only 4 drivers, if you get far enuff away, it shouldn't be a big problem. Most of the 4 driver arrarys (not many) are using 2" drivers and some of those allow for turning off the outer 2 above a certain frequency.
With 3" driver spacing, lambda ~ 4500, Griffins paper indicates that the array will transition from a virtual line array to individual point sources and will start combing above this. You need to get into the far field to avoid the worst of it (about > 10 ft for your 4 driver array)"
I beleive D_Dubya was listening to his speakers on his kitchen table, then at his computer when he made that comment. Any small driver will experience combing listening that close to the driver. When he moved it out into his main system, things improved. My main listening area or sweet spot is 13 ft. away and I notice no combing at all. They are wonderful and so articulate. John McDonald, the owner of Audience, recommends that you place the speakers at 45 degree angles to each other and make sure the speakers clear the front of your display and audio rack, especially when your listening area is as large as mine. I'm including a pic where mine are. I have them placed there temporarily.
Dave, you posted on the 4 driver array and combing at one of my other forums I have a thread started. You were using the Griffens paper example. Here is your cut and pasted quote:
"With only 4 drivers, if you get far enuff away, it shouldn't be a big problem. Most of the 4 driver arrarys (not many) are using 2" drivers and some of those allow for turning off the outer 2 above a certain frequency.
With 3" driver spacing, lambda ~ 4500, Griffins paper indicates that the array will transition from a virtual line array to individual point sources and will start combing above this. You need to get into the far field to avoid the worst of it (about > 10 ft for your 4 driver array)"
I beleive D_Dubya was listening to his speakers on his kitchen table, then at his computer when he made that comment. Any small driver will experience combing listening that close to the driver. When he moved it out into his main system, things improved. My main listening area or sweet spot is 13 ft. away and I notice no combing at all. They are wonderful and so articulate. John McDonald, the owner of Audience, recommends that you place the speakers at 45 degree angles to each other and make sure the speakers clear the front of your display and audio rack, especially when your listening area is as large as mine. I'm including a pic where mine are. I have them placed there temporarily.
Attachments
Please note my comments above are in haste and eagerness to listen and under less than ideal situations...at a kitchen table and then placed on top of ~40" tall floorstanders. Hope that helps put my comments about off axis high frequency drop in a better context.
Later tonight I'll bring out my stands and place them in a much more appropriate listening position for further evaluation.
Later tonight I'll bring out my stands and place them in a much more appropriate listening position for further evaluation.
Tweeters
Dave,
You would be pleasantly surprised to hear them in a line array of 8 or 16 drivers. These puppies reach 22,000 hz and are so clean and crisp. By adding tweeters to them, the highs would be so brilliant you couldn't listen to them very long.
I auditioned a pair of B & W Nautilus speakers with a single top mounted tweeter. It was so bright, I moved on to the next room.
The Audience company has designed the A3 speaker to truely be the full range driver with the XBL2 technology.
Years ago, I was going to build some line arrays with the Aura 2" drivers, but chose the conventional driver alignment because I didn't think I could get the sound I wanted. Audience has done it right with their A3s.
Grab two or four of them and you will be as surprised as I was/am.
Dave,
You would be pleasantly surprised to hear them in a line array of 8 or 16 drivers. These puppies reach 22,000 hz and are so clean and crisp. By adding tweeters to them, the highs would be so brilliant you couldn't listen to them very long.
I auditioned a pair of B & W Nautilus speakers with a single top mounted tweeter. It was so bright, I moved on to the next room.
The Audience company has designed the A3 speaker to truely be the full range driver with the XBL2 technology.
Years ago, I was going to build some line arrays with the Aura 2" drivers, but chose the conventional driver alignment because I didn't think I could get the sound I wanted. Audience has done it right with their A3s.
Grab two or four of them and you will be as surprised as I was/am.
Re: Tweeters
I will certainly grab the opportunity to have a listen if i ever get a chance.
Unless i get loaned some to try 1st, i'm not ging to spend the money. Except for the bottom, i would not be surprised if the A3 has trouble keeping up with the FF85KeN (for half the retail), they would have to be seriously good to beat them (you never know)
dave
I will certainly grab the opportunity to have a listen if i ever get a chance.
mfishmike said:
Unless i get loaned some to try 1st, i'm not ging to spend the money. Except for the bottom, i would not be surprised if the A3 has trouble keeping up with the FF85KeN (for half the retail), they would have to be seriously good to beat them (you never know)
dave
A cheaper test would be using the peerless tc9 from madisound (know as fr35 over seas). Same frame size of near 84mm, and a slightly lower f3 in qtc .707 but you need .3ft3 per driver. I think the audience f3 was near 140hz.
They are $15 for 1, $14 for 10+, and $12.12 for 50+.
The tc9 has a slightly lighter cone (1.92g vs 2.5g) but 3mm xmax (9mm long voice coil) instead of 6mm........... And the tc9 has a copper cap on the pole piece that lowers inductance and distortion. It too has a peak at 8khz but it is smaller than the a3, but the a3 goes above 8khz better...............
The a3 probably has dual spaced coils becasue they list voice coil as only 4.3mm long.................
The a3 also has a climbing response that would help alleviate some combing.......................
Am I the only one who sees an 8db spike near 8khz on the a3 ?
http://www.audience-av.com/parts/specificatons/A3StatsGraph.pdf
At $170 each for the a3, ouch.
But you can recreate the audience speakers for much less money.
For 10% of the cost, I'd move 1/2 the air.
I don't like drivers to move far, they modulate voices quicker.
Planet10,
your ff85k has an 84mm frame, you could do a 4 array and get back to us............
I have my 4 tang band 4" bamboos, but they are an open baffle and focused for a 12' listening point, not what we are discussing here.
Norman
They are $15 for 1, $14 for 10+, and $12.12 for 50+.
The tc9 has a slightly lighter cone (1.92g vs 2.5g) but 3mm xmax (9mm long voice coil) instead of 6mm........... And the tc9 has a copper cap on the pole piece that lowers inductance and distortion. It too has a peak at 8khz but it is smaller than the a3, but the a3 goes above 8khz better...............
The a3 probably has dual spaced coils becasue they list voice coil as only 4.3mm long.................
The a3 also has a climbing response that would help alleviate some combing.......................
Am I the only one who sees an 8db spike near 8khz on the a3 ?
http://www.audience-av.com/parts/specificatons/A3StatsGraph.pdf
At $170 each for the a3, ouch.
But you can recreate the audience speakers for much less money.
For 10% of the cost, I'd move 1/2 the air.
I don't like drivers to move far, they modulate voices quicker.
Planet10,
your ff85k has an 84mm frame, you could do a 4 array and get back to us............
I have my 4 tang band 4" bamboos, but they are an open baffle and focused for a 12' listening point, not what we are discussing here.
Norman
Ok, more listening comments with about 3-4 hours on the drivers.
High frequencies: Clean and clear. Symbols lack a touch of sparkle and shimmer compared to a true tweeter but otherwise very good. Verified with test disc.
Mid range: Plenty of energy here with good vocal presence and realism. Very clean here too, they can dig up low level details in the music. These drivers pretty much nail vocals and acoustic guitar. Play Andy McKee's Art of Motion (solo acoustic guitar instrumental) and prepare to impress yourself and your listening buddies. Likewise on vocals and acoustic arrangements with Ray Lamontagne Till the Sun Turns Black.
Bass: Useable output down to about 70 Hz in my room and where I placed them (see image). Roll off starts after 70 and drops off after about 60. Verified with test disc. I may dust off my subwoofer and experiment more tomorrow here.
Placed on proper stands and reasonably placed they produce a generous soundstage and nice sweet spot in the listening chair.
I see Audience recommends and shows their speakers with moderate toe in. I first started with them firing straight at my ears (images show this set up). After a few experimental placements I angled them in even more with the speaker axis now crossed in front of my listening position. This created good stage depth with a slight trade off in width.
Currently playing Mark Knopfler while I type this from the office which is across the hall from the music room and things still sound pretty good. Always nice when this happens.
In many ways, within their limits, they are better than my more expensive towers. Overall I am digging these little drivers. I want more of what I am hearing and I think 4 of these per cabinet would be great. And that is where I am torn, because of their price.
High frequencies: Clean and clear. Symbols lack a touch of sparkle and shimmer compared to a true tweeter but otherwise very good. Verified with test disc.
Mid range: Plenty of energy here with good vocal presence and realism. Very clean here too, they can dig up low level details in the music. These drivers pretty much nail vocals and acoustic guitar. Play Andy McKee's Art of Motion (solo acoustic guitar instrumental) and prepare to impress yourself and your listening buddies. Likewise on vocals and acoustic arrangements with Ray Lamontagne Till the Sun Turns Black.
Bass: Useable output down to about 70 Hz in my room and where I placed them (see image). Roll off starts after 70 and drops off after about 60. Verified with test disc. I may dust off my subwoofer and experiment more tomorrow here.
Placed on proper stands and reasonably placed they produce a generous soundstage and nice sweet spot in the listening chair.
I see Audience recommends and shows their speakers with moderate toe in. I first started with them firing straight at my ears (images show this set up). After a few experimental placements I angled them in even more with the speaker axis now crossed in front of my listening position. This created good stage depth with a slight trade off in width.
Currently playing Mark Knopfler while I type this from the office which is across the hall from the music room and things still sound pretty good. Always nice when this happens.
In many ways, within their limits, they are better than my more expensive towers. Overall I am digging these little drivers. I want more of what I am hearing and I think 4 of these per cabinet would be great. And that is where I am torn, because of their price.
Attachments
further follow up
This evening I worked in the subwoofer with the dual driver A3 monitors. I also moved my main floorstanding speakers out of the way for better placement of the A3 monitors as I think these will be in the system a while longer.
It takes more than one evening to dial in a subwoofer (at least for me) but crossing over to the A3 monitors is showing some good and some bad signs.
To the good, their sound seems even more open and free from the speaker with no obvious colorations. To the bad, the subwoofer bass is pathetically slow and not well defined compared to what the A3s put out. I can see this being a lingering issue if I stick with the sub.
Overall, I am even more impressed today than I was yesterday with these drivers and the sound they can produce.
This evening I worked in the subwoofer with the dual driver A3 monitors. I also moved my main floorstanding speakers out of the way for better placement of the A3 monitors as I think these will be in the system a while longer.
It takes more than one evening to dial in a subwoofer (at least for me) but crossing over to the A3 monitors is showing some good and some bad signs.
To the good, their sound seems even more open and free from the speaker with no obvious colorations. To the bad, the subwoofer bass is pathetically slow and not well defined compared to what the A3s put out. I can see this being a lingering issue if I stick with the sub.
Overall, I am even more impressed today than I was yesterday with these drivers and the sound they can produce.
D_Dubya,
I'm glad to hear they sound good to you but am a bit puzzled about the sub integration?
I'm curious about what kind of subwoofer you are using.
My subs are very large and stacked. (235 lbs. ea.) I'm pushing them with twin 1450 QSC amps, have 4-15" Soundsplinter RLP15 drivers, and 8-2100 gram 15" flat passive radiators. They are very smooth. They blend in with all of my music and the movies I watch.
I noticed you were interested in having four more of these gems. I have 4 extras I might be able to turn loose.
email me for details: mfishmike@mindspring.com
I'm glad to hear they sound good to you but am a bit puzzled about the sub integration?
I'm curious about what kind of subwoofer you are using.
My subs are very large and stacked. (235 lbs. ea.) I'm pushing them with twin 1450 QSC amps, have 4-15" Soundsplinter RLP15 drivers, and 8-2100 gram 15" flat passive radiators. They are very smooth. They blend in with all of my music and the movies I watch.
I noticed you were interested in having four more of these gems. I have 4 extras I might be able to turn loose.
email me for details: mfishmike@mindspring.com
mfishmike, JBL PSW100 I believe is the model of the subwoofer, I have used it in the past with some success but not in my current music room.
Where do you have your subwoofers crossed over at to the A3 monitors? Are you running the monitors full range with the low bass augmented?
I have improved things a bit regarding the integration, longer interconnects allowed me to move the subwoofer out of the corner and further into the room. Still more to do though.
Not sure why my "email button" will not show on my posted replies, I will email you off line.
Where do you have your subwoofers crossed over at to the A3 monitors? Are you running the monitors full range with the low bass augmented?
I have improved things a bit regarding the integration, longer interconnects allowed me to move the subwoofer out of the corner and further into the room. Still more to do though.
Not sure why my "email button" will not show on my posted replies, I will email you off line.
D_Dubya,
I see your subwoofer is a 10" and is adjustable to 150 hz to compliment bookshelf speakers that can't reach the lower frequencies of let's 80 hz that the larger speakers can reach.
I have my subs set at 80 hz, but I'm using my A3 four driver cabinets ported which gets me down lower than a sealed enclosure will go.
Mike
I see your subwoofer is a 10" and is adjustable to 150 hz to compliment bookshelf speakers that can't reach the lower frequencies of let's 80 hz that the larger speakers can reach.
I have my subs set at 80 hz, but I'm using my A3 four driver cabinets ported which gets me down lower than a sealed enclosure will go.
Mike
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