Hello,
I`m from Bulgaria. Sorry for my bad english!
I have a 2 pieces Audax HM210Z12 8 inch drivers. I want to do my first Diy project. Can you help me with the boxes. I`m searching for other projects with the same drivers, but can`t find them. I want to do a project like KLS9 but the drivers are not simmilar parameters. There are HM210Z0 and the resonance of the drivers is different. I don`t know how to start.
thanks very much!
best regards
I`m from Bulgaria. Sorry for my bad english!
I have a 2 pieces Audax HM210Z12 8 inch drivers. I want to do my first Diy project. Can you help me with the boxes. I`m searching for other projects with the same drivers, but can`t find them. I want to do a project like KLS9 but the drivers are not simmilar parameters. There are HM210Z0 and the resonance of the drivers is different. I don`t know how to start.
thanks very much!
best regards
Here is information from a 4 year old Parts Express catalog:
Voice coil diameter 1.5 inches
Voice coil inductance -- 1.44 mH
Nominal impedance -- 8 ohms
DC resistance (Re) -- 6.2 ohms
Frequency range 32-3000 hz
Magnet weight 20 oz.
Fs 32.0 hz
SPL 90.7 dB 2.83V/1m
Vas 3.05 cu. ft.
Qms 3.24
Qes .37
Qts .33
Xmax 4.4 mm
Net weight 5 lbs.
Hope this helps.
Dick
Voice coil diameter 1.5 inches
Voice coil inductance -- 1.44 mH
Nominal impedance -- 8 ohms
DC resistance (Re) -- 6.2 ohms
Frequency range 32-3000 hz
Magnet weight 20 oz.
Fs 32.0 hz
SPL 90.7 dB 2.83V/1m
Vas 3.05 cu. ft.
Qms 3.24
Qes .37
Qts .33
Xmax 4.4 mm
Net weight 5 lbs.
Hope this helps.
Dick
I doubt you will find a completely finished project for this driver. The parameters will tell you how to make the box for the woofer, how large it should be, and the size and length of the tuning port if you make it a bass reflex cabinet. To do this you can use WinISD (free) box modeling software.
The crossover between it and the tweeter specified in the Kls9 will be almost identical. You can tweak it by ear to accomodate the slight difference between your drivers and their previous models.
I doubt you will find much more help.
You can go to this web site for some info about a 3-way project using two HM210ZO 8" drivers per channel:
http://www.blackdahlia.com/polyarti.htm
There you will see that only slight modifications were made to use this later model of the original HM210ZO drivers.
Cheers
The crossover between it and the tweeter specified in the Kls9 will be almost identical. You can tweak it by ear to accomodate the slight difference between your drivers and their previous models.
I doubt you will find much more help.
You can go to this web site for some info about a 3-way project using two HM210ZO 8" drivers per channel:
http://www.blackdahlia.com/polyarti.htm
There you will see that only slight modifications were made to use this later model of the original HM210ZO drivers.
Cheers
Hi djiv,
I've already asked on forums if this driver is suitable for 2-way loudspeaker, but it seems that it's not. Driver has some breakup around 1.9kHz which can be seen on amplitude response, impedance and also on waterfall plot. But there's a nice design using them in d'Apollito configuration, it's called AD828. If you want construction plans, send me an email.
So it's hard to tell if this driver is good for 2-way design.
Robo
I've already asked on forums if this driver is suitable for 2-way loudspeaker, but it seems that it's not. Driver has some breakup around 1.9kHz which can be seen on amplitude response, impedance and also on waterfall plot. But there's a nice design using them in d'Apollito configuration, it's called AD828. If you want construction plans, send me an email.
So it's hard to tell if this driver is good for 2-way design.
Robo
Hello, everyone. I'm new to this board. Several years ago (1998?), I used that Aerogel 8" driver with a Focal inverted titanium dome (TC90 something or other), and it made a very fine combination. I bought both drivers from Madisound, although I see they don't carry Focal anymore. They also designed the crossover using the LEAP software. Anyway, I really loved those speakers, but they are now sitting in my dad's house. I built a smaller set of speakers using the same tweeter (love that Focal sound) and Scan-Speak 7" kevlar (18W/8546) woofers, which also sound great. One of these days, I'm going to build a three-way using all three of these drivers, if they can still be found, of course.
ezkcdude,
Which version of that 8" driver did you use? The original HM210ZO or the later HM210Z1 or HM210Z2 versions? The original version did have a nice upper end. The later versions had a changed voice coil and spider which resulted in more bass, less upper range, and worked with a slightly smaller cabinet. Audax had been known to change T/S parameters on drivers in step with market demands.
I had 4 of the original HM210ZO drivers which were sold after replacement by the HP210Z2. The original HM drivers had a weak lower bass, the HP drivers had a better upper end, so this switch for me was a beneficial tradeoff (I am using them with a sub). Madisound had a design for the HP drivers. I was unaware of their design for the HM driver. This is all moot now as none of these drivers is now available. Audax closed out their retail sales 3 years ago.
FWIW, the best driver of the Audax Aerogels was their HM130Z0. It was a midrange used by some big name 3-way commercial designs. Its later versions (HM13OZ1 and 2) did not fare as well as they were more of a bass/mid driver (not just a midrange driver) and the midrange of them suffered in comparison to the original HM130ZO version.
Time marches on . . .
Which version of that 8" driver did you use? The original HM210ZO or the later HM210Z1 or HM210Z2 versions? The original version did have a nice upper end. The later versions had a changed voice coil and spider which resulted in more bass, less upper range, and worked with a slightly smaller cabinet. Audax had been known to change T/S parameters on drivers in step with market demands.
I had 4 of the original HM210ZO drivers which were sold after replacement by the HP210Z2. The original HM drivers had a weak lower bass, the HP drivers had a better upper end, so this switch for me was a beneficial tradeoff (I am using them with a sub). Madisound had a design for the HP drivers. I was unaware of their design for the HM driver. This is all moot now as none of these drivers is now available. Audax closed out their retail sales 3 years ago.
FWIW, the best driver of the Audax Aerogels was their HM130Z0. It was a midrange used by some big name 3-way commercial designs. Its later versions (HM13OZ1 and 2) did not fare as well as they were more of a bass/mid driver (not just a midrange driver) and the midrange of them suffered in comparison to the original HM130ZO version.
Time marches on . . .
I'm pretty sure I had the original version of the 8". I was kind of dissapointed that Audax doesn't sell those anymore. Well, at least, I'll have that one pair. I asked my dad to take some pics, and I'll post them here when he sends them to me. Dick, or anyone else listening, off the top of your head, what current drivers remind you the most of that original Aerogel? Is there anything comparable? It looks like it's hard to find any of my original drivers on Madisound, except for the Scan-Speak 7", which is still there. They don't carry Focal anymore. I really liked the sound combination of the Focal and the Aerogel. If anyone is interested, here is a pic of the DIY speakers I currently listen to with the Focal tweeter and Scan-Speak 7":
http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/diy.jpg
These are made of 3/4" MDF, 1/4" Oak plywood veneer (from Home Depot), and a two-way xover by Madisound. There's also a horizontal baffle placed between the two drivers. Each speaker weighs about 20 lbs or so.
http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/diy.jpg
These are made of 3/4" MDF, 1/4" Oak plywood veneer (from Home Depot), and a two-way xover by Madisound. There's also a horizontal baffle placed between the two drivers. Each speaker weighs about 20 lbs or so.
Thanks for help,
What you thing for 2-way project with crossover at 2 Khz? The HM210Z12 has a phase plug. Bad or good?
Sorry for my bad english!
Will be good a this project http://www.diyaudio.gr/oldarcos.htm , but with 1 bass driver. The crossover is very complicated. What is your opinion about something like this?
What you thing for 2-way project with crossover at 2 Khz? The HM210Z12 has a phase plug. Bad or good?
Sorry for my bad english!
Will be good a this project http://www.diyaudio.gr/oldarcos.htm , but with 1 bass driver. The crossover is very complicated. What is your opinion about something like this?
djiv,
A crossover at 1500hz is better and the slopes should be at least 2nd order which means you need a robust tweeter with an Fs of around 750hz.
As for specific crossover schematic, much depends on your choice of tweeter and size of baffle. Crossovers, to work best, should be designed for the exact combination of drivers and baffle you use which requires measuring equipment and crossover simulation software. Off-the-shelf crossovers are to be avoided.
Your original thought of the Kls9 was OK as it used first order slopes that are easy to tweak but it also was designed for the HM210ZO which you don't have and it would be a low power speaker.
No 8" diameter driver will do well in the midrange. It should be crossed as low as possible, which is why this size driver is best used in a 3-way design.
Seas makes a good tweeter. Do a search here. "D27" or something similar is its name. It is not too expensive and has an Fs of around 750 hz as I recall.
Also, do some research about Baffle Step Compensation, why it is needed and how to get it. A search on the Loudspeaker forums should provide information.
A crossover at 1500hz is better and the slopes should be at least 2nd order which means you need a robust tweeter with an Fs of around 750hz.
As for specific crossover schematic, much depends on your choice of tweeter and size of baffle. Crossovers, to work best, should be designed for the exact combination of drivers and baffle you use which requires measuring equipment and crossover simulation software. Off-the-shelf crossovers are to be avoided.
Your original thought of the Kls9 was OK as it used first order slopes that are easy to tweak but it also was designed for the HM210ZO which you don't have and it would be a low power speaker.
No 8" diameter driver will do well in the midrange. It should be crossed as low as possible, which is why this size driver is best used in a 3-way design.
Seas makes a good tweeter. Do a search here. "D27" or something similar is its name. It is not too expensive and has an Fs of around 750 hz as I recall.
Also, do some research about Baffle Step Compensation, why it is needed and how to get it. A search on the Loudspeaker forums should provide information.
ezkcdude,
Watch the messages and post a question or two at the Madisound message board. Speaker sound preference is a very personal thing. Much depends on the way in which the crossover is designed. I have no personal experience with your Scanspeak or Focal drivers. Not everyone would agree with your love of the Focal tweeter. Others have become favorites in the last few years.
Many of the guys there like Seas drivers and OW1 tweeters, or the Seas tweeters. Vifa is no longer as it was absorbed by the recent merger of Peerless, Vifa and Scanspeak into one company and I believe Focal no longer sells into the retail DIY market. Also, designs by Dennis Murphy get a lot of good comments at Madisound, his designs are free to use and details are published at his web site:
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=main.html
Cheers
Watch the messages and post a question or two at the Madisound message board. Speaker sound preference is a very personal thing. Much depends on the way in which the crossover is designed. I have no personal experience with your Scanspeak or Focal drivers. Not everyone would agree with your love of the Focal tweeter. Others have become favorites in the last few years.
Many of the guys there like Seas drivers and OW1 tweeters, or the Seas tweeters. Vifa is no longer as it was absorbed by the recent merger of Peerless, Vifa and Scanspeak into one company and I believe Focal no longer sells into the retail DIY market. Also, designs by Dennis Murphy get a lot of good comments at Madisound, his designs are free to use and details are published at his web site:
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=main.html
Cheers
Dear djiv,
According to Audax FR chart the HM210Z12 has a natural roll-off around 2 khz.
This means that it could match a Seas back chambered tweeter with a fs around 900 hz (ie H883...).
I would try a very simple configuration first with NO crossover on the HM210Z12 and a simple second order around 2,5 khz on the tweeter.
As their sensitivity is the same (around 90 db) you will have a very simple and natural crossover.
IMHO considering the quality of the drivers you could have a VERY, B]VERY[/B good surprise if the box is correctly built.
Just my 0,2 cents...
Have fun,
Lionel
According to Audax FR chart the HM210Z12 has a natural roll-off around 2 khz.
This means that it could match a Seas back chambered tweeter with a fs around 900 hz (ie H883...).
I would try a very simple configuration first with NO crossover on the HM210Z12 and a simple second order around 2,5 khz on the tweeter.
As their sensitivity is the same (around 90 db) you will have a very simple and natural crossover.
IMHO considering the quality of the drivers you could have a VERY, B]VERY[/B good surprise if the box is correctly built.
Just my 0,2 cents...
Have fun,
Lionel
Measurements of driver in arcos doesn't correspond with audax datasheet. They have chosen higher crossover freq (2.5kHz), which is according to audax datasheet far over breakup (1.9kHz) where is sharp rolloff. On arcus website is graph with gentle rolloff, but audax website shows very sharp rolloff at 1.9kHz.
You have to choose higher slope for crossover and keep crossover frequency as low as possible. Seas tweeters (with rear chamber) are claimed to go down to 1.5kHz, but I'm not sure if it is real.
You have to choose higher slope for crossover and keep crossover frequency as low as possible. Seas tweeters (with rear chamber) are claimed to go down to 1.5kHz, but I'm not sure if it is real.
Lionel said:
I agree that it is natural rolloff, but it has sharp knee (which can be seen on waterfall graph as delayed energy). I call it breakup mode, correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, driver starts to roll off at 1.9kHz what is low for 2 way speaker, so you have to cross it very low (1.5kHz) and with higer order crossover.
DarkOne,
Some Seas tweeters with back chambers have an Fs around 750 hz which means they can be used down to 1.5khz with a 2nd order high pass network.
Many Audax drivers over the years often had different T/S parameters than advertised and many of their specification sheets and published FR curves were more fantasy and fiction than reality. The aero-gel drivers were in many ways excellent but they had to be measured individually to get their real specs. The confusion you note between Audax FR graphs and the one at the Arcos web site is a good example of this.
I agree with Lionel that the original poster should just try his HM driver with a good tweeter that has a low Fs and use a 2nd order high pass filter at around 2500 hz. If not driven too hard or played too loudly this speaker system might sound OK to DJIV. But none of us know how he hears things or how he likes to listen. He needs to just try it.
However, the suggestion by Lionel may not hide cone breakup noise sufficiently. The Kls9 system DJIV originally mentioned used a coil in series with the woofer. I would use a coil large enough to make for a slight dip in the mid range which could provide some baffle step compensation and hide part of the noise from cone breakup. If this works and DJIV can tweak in an acceptable 2nd order high pass filter for the tweeter, and if he gets the loudness of his tweeter set properly, he may have a passable system. He can use this link to help calculate L pad resistors to control tweeter loudness:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
Cheers
Some Seas tweeters with back chambers have an Fs around 750 hz which means they can be used down to 1.5khz with a 2nd order high pass network.
Many Audax drivers over the years often had different T/S parameters than advertised and many of their specification sheets and published FR curves were more fantasy and fiction than reality. The aero-gel drivers were in many ways excellent but they had to be measured individually to get their real specs. The confusion you note between Audax FR graphs and the one at the Arcos web site is a good example of this.
I agree with Lionel that the original poster should just try his HM driver with a good tweeter that has a low Fs and use a 2nd order high pass filter at around 2500 hz. If not driven too hard or played too loudly this speaker system might sound OK to DJIV. But none of us know how he hears things or how he likes to listen. He needs to just try it.
However, the suggestion by Lionel may not hide cone breakup noise sufficiently. The Kls9 system DJIV originally mentioned used a coil in series with the woofer. I would use a coil large enough to make for a slight dip in the mid range which could provide some baffle step compensation and hide part of the noise from cone breakup. If this works and DJIV can tweak in an acceptable 2nd order high pass filter for the tweeter, and if he gets the loudness of his tweeter set properly, he may have a passable system. He can use this link to help calculate L pad resistors to control tweeter loudness:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
Cheers
I know that seas claims to go down to 1.5kHz, but only if you don't need high SPL, because you might be excursion limited.
Few months ago I started thread about this driver and I asked if it is suitable for mid-woofer application. I refered to FR curves and CSD plots, that on every website they look different.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=64274&highlight=
Anyway I have plans to use this driver as midbass, but with higher slope digital crossover. I have to say that I like this driver very much, but I'm still not sure.
I emailed with djiv about that.
Few months ago I started thread about this driver and I asked if it is suitable for mid-woofer application. I refered to FR curves and CSD plots, that on every website they look different.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=64274&highlight=
Anyway I have plans to use this driver as midbass, but with higher slope digital crossover. I have to say that I like this driver very much, but I'm still not sure.
I emailed with djiv about that.
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