Disabled Account
Joined 2003
I'll say this for the final time.
THE PHL DOES NOT EAT THE SEAS FOR PURE MIDRANGE.
With your head in the sand, can you hear what I'm saying, or read the measurements again?
And to say that the ATC will also beat it, because, it "is quite similar to this magnificant driver", is, as you have stated, purely conjecture.
I'd like to see this!
And yes, before I even hear it. Because I know that my ears plays tricks on me.
tktran said:
So our ears play tricks on us?
Maybe that's perfectly true for the first few days of playing with a new driver. Afterall a change is as good as a rest as they say.
But after listen for hundreds of hours you completely forget about any such initial excitement. Its then that you properly assess a driver.
Or are you saying some people's ears are in a continual state of denial? Does that also imply that day to day sound like the telephone ringing or a conversation with a friend is similarly 'Rose tinted'?
Its actually funny that you've delved this deep into your bag. Specs over sound?!? Ear to Brain interactions? Come on TK get in the real world, what actually gives you a better idea of how good a loudspeaker is? Actually listening to a speaker or printing out spec sheets and tracing one graph over another to see which is best? Or howabout maybe looking for when the 'detail enchancement' function of the brain engages whilst you sit listening to music as opposed to just relaxing and forgetting that your actually listening to speakers?
The above paragraph is overly sarcastic but hell you brought it on yourself TK.
I think the problem here is you can't argue with someones opinion on a driver they've owned and listened to extensively when you've never actually heard it yourself. So you turn to specs somehow give you an insight into the sound, when in reality the only people they mean anything to is exactly the one's who have never heard the driver in the first place. Its catch 22 and quickly becomes pointless argueing the toss.
What's more troubling is misinformation to others from either party - its not really in the spirit of DIY. I can guess what's its like on the surface of mars from the pictures and data available or howabout I guess what its like to drive a Ferrari F50 from all the data and graphs available. As you can see its quite funny to actually try to imagine either of those things and similarly its actually quite funny to do the same with a loudspeaker.
We're humans and we have emotions and by that very definition it means that sensory input stimulates us. You can't look at a spec sheet and guess how much that driver will please you on an emotional level!!! You need to do what humans do best and experience it to fully appreciate it. By the same token we all have different tastes so what fits one the other may not squeeze into.
Specs don't give half the picture at all when it comes to sound. What specs are good for though is in the design stage. XO slopes points, loading, volume, baffle size, driver offsets, power handling etc. etc.
But even then no matter what numbers I have in front of me after implementing the statistically perfect speaker for the drivers I have chosen. I always tweak that last 20-30% or so out by ear. And anyone else who actually wants the best from their drivers does the same.
Which highlights exactly what I've said all along. The most important bit is listening. And opinions based on specs alone should be taken at arms length.
For some they need black and white to make any sort of decision regarding drivers. They have to have the best on paper specs or cost $$$$ to justify a claim to good sound. The ATC is a listeners driver, it rewards big and you have to put very little effort in to enjoy it. You don't need to listen attentively you can sit back and it brings the details to you, it involves you in the music that bit more that I haven't got from the best of my previous loudspeakers.
Easy chap. Perhaps you should just go listen to some music, isn't that what we do this for?
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Are you kidding me?
Of course I can- haven't we've already established that?
Let me dig the archives:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=687364#post687364
Here you are, getting pretty worked up at me
This is because I'd said some things were in direct contradiction with your own experience AND ears with the SEAS L22RNX4/P. No matter how much you tried, you couldn't get them to sound right. So you blame the drivers.
Then in http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=689504#post689504
you said
At that point, and to this very day, I haven't seen, built with, or even heard the SEAS L22RNX/4P.
Yet I was completely comfortable arguing with you about it. After you had good rant and rave, I could have shut up completely too.
But in the DIY spirit I pursued my argument.
Just because we've heard them all, bought more than out fair share of em, even compared them behind a black grill or listened to them free air etc, does that mean that someone who doesn't owned them, or experienced them, shouldn't, or can't argue?
FWIW, I analysed SEAS' own T/S measurements and box data recommendations, which Troels followed to build his cabinets. That was the entire crux of my argument and contribution.
Was it valid?
Like I said before to noob, here we are again, going around and around in circles.
tktran signing out (end contribution to this thread)
Erm what does this have to do with the specs vs. real life experience argument. As far as I can see its just an attempt at one upmanship. A case of I'm right your wrong if I'm not mistaken. It does absolutely nothing to reinforce your argument for several reasons:
I actually said I was never happy with L22 didn't I? It prompted that entire discussion you've quoted.
You also took all your suggestions for loading from Troels Acapella project, so you didn't have to hear it did you. He'd already done hours of experimenting in the first place. It was a simple case of reiterating others work where success had been noted.
In the end despite the modifications I still wasn't entirely happy with the L22 and swapped them out for the W22. Doesn't that suggest that despite heeding the best possible loading situation for the L22 it still wasn't for me?
The L22 BTW has admirable specs yet didn't quite hit the mark when paired with better drivers. Again your reinforcing my argument that specs are misleading and only listening will tell you anything meaningful when it comes to musical enjoyment.
Most folks would love the L22 but I'm very picky and hence all the more reason why my sheer delight with the ATC has particular weight. Its not your everyday decent driver like the L22.
Unfortunately not.
I did blame the drivers at first and continued to do so after the mods and the improvements were made. They weren't up to scratch hence I flogged them. Specs allowed my to improve them a little but I still trusted my ears over those specs.
So it wasn't a contradiction at all though was it. I still wasn't pleased enough to keep the drivers.
Weren't you argueing for arguments sake though since you had no evidence other than specs? I keep saying this but the only thing that really matter is the sound and you haven't heard that.
Sure you can argue but what I meant was that its hard to argue with someone who's knows the the driver well when all you can go on is specs.
Its impossible to do. Fair enough if you've heard the ATC and we can argue on a level playing field otherwise I've have a distinct advantage and by definition my opinion carries more weight. I'm brutally honest when it comes to sound and if I'm not happy I'll say as highlight by the L22 case and the fact I completely rebuilt my project because it wasn't quite right in the bass area. I've never seen any bad comments or even something saying the ATC is just an OK driver. Every comment I've read is glowing and my comments are no different for good reason.
Yes it was better in that ported cab. Still not good enough though.
Yep, I said that a couple of posts back too: "Its catch 22 and quickly becomes pointless argueing the toss."
Quitter
Eitherway no hard feelings and I still value your input so thanks.
I actually said I was never happy with L22 didn't I? It prompted that entire discussion you've quoted.
You also took all your suggestions for loading from Troels Acapella project, so you didn't have to hear it did you. He'd already done hours of experimenting in the first place. It was a simple case of reiterating others work where success had been noted.
In the end despite the modifications I still wasn't entirely happy with the L22 and swapped them out for the W22. Doesn't that suggest that despite heeding the best possible loading situation for the L22 it still wasn't for me?
The L22 BTW has admirable specs yet didn't quite hit the mark when paired with better drivers. Again your reinforcing my argument that specs are misleading and only listening will tell you anything meaningful when it comes to musical enjoyment.
Most folks would love the L22 but I'm very picky and hence all the more reason why my sheer delight with the ATC has particular weight. Its not your everyday decent driver like the L22.
Unfortunately not.
I did blame the drivers at first and continued to do so after the mods and the improvements were made. They weren't up to scratch hence I flogged them. Specs allowed my to improve them a little but I still trusted my ears over those specs.
So it wasn't a contradiction at all though was it. I still wasn't pleased enough to keep the drivers.
Weren't you argueing for arguments sake though since you had no evidence other than specs? I keep saying this but the only thing that really matter is the sound and you haven't heard that.
Sure you can argue but what I meant was that its hard to argue with someone who's knows the the driver well when all you can go on is specs.
Its impossible to do. Fair enough if you've heard the ATC and we can argue on a level playing field otherwise I've have a distinct advantage and by definition my opinion carries more weight. I'm brutally honest when it comes to sound and if I'm not happy I'll say as highlight by the L22 case and the fact I completely rebuilt my project because it wasn't quite right in the bass area. I've never seen any bad comments or even something saying the ATC is just an OK driver. Every comment I've read is glowing and my comments are no different for good reason.
Yes it was better in that ported cab. Still not good enough though.
Yep, I said that a couple of posts back too: "Its catch 22 and quickly becomes pointless argueing the toss."
Quitter
Eitherway no hard feelings and I still value your input so thanks.
Shinobiwan
So dude . you seem to have had a listen to more then a few mid ranges. The ATC is that good ? Much better the Seas and Scan Speak drivers ? I am jumping threads here but this is right in the middle of my Mid Range Dilemma. Buy another Morel to Up efficiency in my system or scrap them and buy an awesome High Efficiency Mid instead.
What say you ?
So dude . you seem to have had a listen to more then a few mid ranges. The ATC is that good ? Much better the Seas and Scan Speak drivers ? I am jumping threads here but this is right in the middle of my Mid Range Dilemma. Buy another Morel to Up efficiency in my system or scrap them and buy an awesome High Efficiency Mid instead.
What say you ?
Re: Shinobiwan
Its a tough call Mike,
I'd like to say that anyone who hears the ATC will agree that its one the best midranges you can buy but that simply isn't true. It may be that case for me but it would be wrong of me to put my faith in it so blindly for others.
From what I gather its a driver that's very hard to audition in the US and Canada simply because it isn't that popular a choice given the cost and availability. So that just leaves a chancer, you buy it and then your stuck with $1400US of drivers should you not like entirely like them. As far as I can make out Solen is the only place to buy them from over there.
Then you have to actually have suitable partnering drivers of similar calibre to really get the best out of the speaker as a whole. One thing I've found with the ATC is that its very picky about the bass driver it crosses too. So far I've used Sea's drivers first was the L22 and then the Excel W22 neither has been particularly noteworthy when used in conjunction with the ATC and both are great drivers when viewed in their own context.
What I'm trying to say is think it through carefully and be prepared to work hard at a crossover the ATC isn't a particularly easy driver to work with but does reward big with effort. I use a PC XO and even with the speed and flexibility that it offers, it still takes me weeks/months to get something I really like.
The ATC is a fantastic driver but I don't think for a minute its the solution for a universal and perfect mid range. Like everything much is down to taste and preference and the ATC is nothing without great drivers to cover the rest of the frequency range, so you'll almost certainly need to upgrade the rest of your drivers.
Its a big risk if its your not 100% certain its right. If you read my comments earlier in this thread, it sounds like its the best midrange ever created but this is my opinion and when it comes whether you'll like it, that means nothing. Its one thing arguing opinion based on specs vs. opinion based on listening its another to push a driver just because you think its the best thing since bikini's.
Are you really sure you've tried absolutely everything with the Morel? And don't forget the ATC isn't the only decent midrange out there and many are cheaper if not as good IMO
Mike, I'm also not going to recommend any other midranges since the only thing you can do is actually listen to them in conjunction with your existing drivers. Its tough but a safe bet from my point of view. I just don't feel comfortable recommending or pushing a particular because I feel it would work.
I would feel more comfortable recommend a design as a whole that I've actually built or designed even then though I've had two failures(bit of an exageration) when choosing bass drivers to pair with the ATC and I know what I'm looking for. I have no idea what your existing drivers sound like nor do I know what you are looking for.
Sorry to not be of more help but perhaps someone with more experience than me could recommend you a driver?
Madmike2 said:So dude . you seem to have had a listen to more then a few mid ranges. The ATC is that good ? Much better the Seas and Scan Speak drivers ? I am jumping threads here but this is right in the middle of my Mid Range Dilemma. Buy another Morel to Up efficiency in my system or scrap them and buy an awesome High Efficiency Mid instead.
What say you ?
Its a tough call Mike,
I'd like to say that anyone who hears the ATC will agree that its one the best midranges you can buy but that simply isn't true. It may be that case for me but it would be wrong of me to put my faith in it so blindly for others.
From what I gather its a driver that's very hard to audition in the US and Canada simply because it isn't that popular a choice given the cost and availability. So that just leaves a chancer, you buy it and then your stuck with $1400US of drivers should you not like entirely like them. As far as I can make out Solen is the only place to buy them from over there.
Then you have to actually have suitable partnering drivers of similar calibre to really get the best out of the speaker as a whole. One thing I've found with the ATC is that its very picky about the bass driver it crosses too. So far I've used Sea's drivers first was the L22 and then the Excel W22 neither has been particularly noteworthy when used in conjunction with the ATC and both are great drivers when viewed in their own context.
What I'm trying to say is think it through carefully and be prepared to work hard at a crossover the ATC isn't a particularly easy driver to work with but does reward big with effort. I use a PC XO and even with the speed and flexibility that it offers, it still takes me weeks/months to get something I really like.
The ATC is a fantastic driver but I don't think for a minute its the solution for a universal and perfect mid range. Like everything much is down to taste and preference and the ATC is nothing without great drivers to cover the rest of the frequency range, so you'll almost certainly need to upgrade the rest of your drivers.
Its a big risk if its your not 100% certain its right. If you read my comments earlier in this thread, it sounds like its the best midrange ever created but this is my opinion and when it comes whether you'll like it, that means nothing. Its one thing arguing opinion based on specs vs. opinion based on listening its another to push a driver just because you think its the best thing since bikini's.
Are you really sure you've tried absolutely everything with the Morel? And don't forget the ATC isn't the only decent midrange out there and many are cheaper if not as good IMO
Mike, I'm also not going to recommend any other midranges since the only thing you can do is actually listen to them in conjunction with your existing drivers. Its tough but a safe bet from my point of view. I just don't feel comfortable recommending or pushing a particular because I feel it would work.
I would feel more comfortable recommend a design as a whole that I've actually built or designed even then though I've had two failures(bit of an exageration) when choosing bass drivers to pair with the ATC and I know what I'm looking for. I have no idea what your existing drivers sound like nor do I know what you are looking for.
Sorry to not be of more help but perhaps someone with more experience than me could recommend you a driver?
Re: Re: Shinobiwan
I'm amazed that it never occured to you (knowing how much you like ATC 75-150 - and I'm not going to argue with that, having been exposed to lengths to friend's ATC 100's) to trust Billy Woodman with bass units too.
I can readily understand what you say about difficulty in matching - my own speakers use Excel drivers and have COMPLETELY different voicing from ATC's. Neither can be said to be 'better' at everything, but I have to say that for overal sound integrity and 'rightness' ATC has upper hand. My boxes (not bad commercial effort either) sound 'HiFi' in comparison if you follow my drift. ATCs sound real .
Still, there are recordings that I prefer on VAFs. They have better upper octaves (ATC100 uses inexpensive Vifa) and are preferred with recordings with lots of 'ambience' (e.g. choral work, most of ECM stuff).
ATCs are incredibly dry and restrained in bass, but with proper recordings nothing sounds more realistic. For well recorded piano as far as I'm concerned they have no peers.
Bottom line - why not try ATC bass units too ? After all, a man who gave us SM75-150 knows what best to mate them with, and not surprisingly uses his own bass units. They are brutes too (15" unit has magnet that is even bigger - 18kg from memory!) and built with same aspiration toward perfection as any other ATC.
Am I missing something obvious here ?
Bratislav
ShinOBIWAN said:
I'm amazed that it never occured to you (knowing how much you like ATC 75-150 - and I'm not going to argue with that, having been exposed to lengths to friend's ATC 100's) to trust Billy Woodman with bass units too.
I can readily understand what you say about difficulty in matching - my own speakers use Excel drivers and have COMPLETELY different voicing from ATC's. Neither can be said to be 'better' at everything, but I have to say that for overal sound integrity and 'rightness' ATC has upper hand. My boxes (not bad commercial effort either) sound 'HiFi' in comparison if you follow my drift. ATCs sound real .
Still, there are recordings that I prefer on VAFs. They have better upper octaves (ATC100 uses inexpensive Vifa) and are preferred with recordings with lots of 'ambience' (e.g. choral work, most of ECM stuff).
ATCs are incredibly dry and restrained in bass, but with proper recordings nothing sounds more realistic. For well recorded piano as far as I'm concerned they have no peers.
Bottom line - why not try ATC bass units too ? After all, a man who gave us SM75-150 knows what best to mate them with, and not surprisingly uses his own bass units. They are brutes too (15" unit has magnet that is even bigger - 18kg from memory!) and built with same aspiration toward perfection as any other ATC.
Am I missing something obvious here ?
Bratislav
Dont get me wrong. I like the Morel they sound great at lower volume its when i start cracking them that the discrepancy in efficiency shows up. the 2 hi-vi per side = something like 91 db and the ribbon is 94. the single morel is close to 85 or so db. Doubling it will solve the efficiency problem.
I was more curious then anything. I have heard how good an Eton sounded ( different then a Morel ) not better just different. And i am more and more convinced that paper > then Poly vocally.
I was more curious then anything. I have heard how good an Eton sounded ( different then a Morel ) not better just different. And i am more and more convinced that paper > then Poly vocally.
Re: Re: Re: Shinobiwan
Hi Bratislav,
I wish I could get hold of an ATC bass driver, its kinda funny since they are made in this country yet no one seems to be able to get hold of one!
Wilmslow Audio who supplied me with the ATC domes said that the bass drivers are all but impossible to get.
I'm not sure if this means anything ie. pulling out of the DIY market? But eitherway its very difficult to find ATC bass drivers overs here.
Bratislav said:
Hi Bratislav,
I wish I could get hold of an ATC bass driver, its kinda funny since they are made in this country yet no one seems to be able to get hold of one!
Wilmslow Audio who supplied me with the ATC domes said that the bass drivers are all but impossible to get.
I'm not sure if this means anything ie. pulling out of the DIY market? But eitherway its very difficult to find ATC bass drivers overs here.
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