...
Thank's so here we go
.The internal volume of the woofer's champer is (H x W x D) 720 x 402 x 302 = 87.410 L.
Would it be okay to change the size to say (H x W x D) 720 x 397 x 306 = 87.460 L.
If is, that's because i will use black MDF (HDF) sheet for the front only, and i can have one with the size of 800 x 1200 mm... If size is reduzed a bit i can get along buying only one sheet that is
Jesper.
Attachments
Of course, the 5mm are no problem at all. But then your front is between the side boards. Is that what you want? The total width of the Asathor is 440mm.
Another tip:
It is best to measure the woofer and horn before making the cutouts. According to the data sheet, the horn is only 319mm wide, but for me it was more like 320.5mm and so that the paint still has some space, I specified 322mm in the plan. If you are veneering, the cutout could be a bit too big.
Another tip:
It is best to measure the woofer and horn before making the cutouts. According to the data sheet, the horn is only 319mm wide, but for me it was more like 320.5mm and so that the paint still has some space, I specified 322mm in the plan. If you are veneering, the cutout could be a bit too big.
Cool...
Yes i will have the front between the sides, and having the sides verneered is the way the original JBL is looking.
The size of W 397mm. is when my sawblade is eating 3mm., maybee it will eat a bit more, compensating a little bit more on the deept to keep the same amount of L. inside the box... I can figure this out NP!
Thank's for the tip's regarding the actual woofersize. Very usefull info.
Jesper.
Attachments
@prarieboy some of the nicest veneers don't have paper backing. If you want to make sure and veneer for the ages, first saturate the wood veneers on both sides with diluted glue to stabalize it, then press it flat between shrink wrap with boards. Then use the iron. Last and super important if you want long lasting veneers is using a veneering hammer to pull/push out any air bubles and excessive glue, giving it consistent adhesion to the speaker. These air bubbles and irregularities with movement of the wood cause the cracking. Sand and then apply your prefered finish.
How it is done right on a cracked, damaged, warped and dried out veneer
Hammer Veneering Part One - YouTube
This should hold many decades. You can also get a veneer scraper instead of a hammer (around 10€, but you need to apply more force) that will remove excess glue and airbubbles, it is all very easy and if you use expensive veneers spend the extra time it will save you heartache. I have also done shortcuts and had "issues" and wasted a lot of money.
Paper backed will be less prone and is pre stabalized (still need to avoid air bubbles) but if you want some very fancy veneers, or less expensive, that is not always an option. It's really easy and has been done with the hammer for centuries for the centuries
Of course have a very smooth sanded and spackled surface, especially if you use plywood this is crucial. Plywood preferably veneered perpendicular to grain for additional strength.
Good luck on the build
I have worked with, and still work with some pretty 'regulsr' exotic veneers. I've done book matched seams with veneer pins and paper veneer tape so I'm not a novice at this.
I would never use diluted glue to stabilize - there's an easy to make glycerine based mixture that does work. However, usually, moisturizing with water and pressing flat, repeating over several days, works.
A better substrate than plywood, unless using Baltic Birch, is MDF. Typically I just use PVA (white) glue and clamp between MDF sheets. Ironed on non-paper backed veneer will start out looking good, but it will crack and split in time. Just sayin' ....
A tip for European users:
At the company "Designholz" there are many types of veneer made from normal softwood. Due to different orientations and gluing, there are many different designs. The whole thing is called "SaRaiFo" and stands for "Save the Rain Forrest".
It is not expensive, is also available in large widths and is often laminated with a fleece on the adhesive side. I've used it several times myself and it's great - a lot easier than with normal veneer.
Check it out:
SaRaiFo Furnier - Save the RainForest-Furniere - Furnier, Massivholz & Edelholz online kaufen - designholz.com
There are also really crazy things, here are a few examples:
Kompakte pegelfeste Box mit neuem Sica 5.5H Studio Woofer - gazza-diy-audio.de
Most of the Gazza designs are veneered with SaRaiFo, just click through them.
Umbau der "Crazy" zur "Crazy Again" - Nachbauten - Roul DIY
And very actual without any surface treatment:
At the company "Designholz" there are many types of veneer made from normal softwood. Due to different orientations and gluing, there are many different designs. The whole thing is called "SaRaiFo" and stands for "Save the Rain Forrest".
It is not expensive, is also available in large widths and is often laminated with a fleece on the adhesive side. I've used it several times myself and it's great - a lot easier than with normal veneer.
Check it out:
SaRaiFo Furnier - Save the RainForest-Furniere - Furnier, Massivholz & Edelholz online kaufen - designholz.com
There are also really crazy things, here are a few examples:
Kompakte pegelfeste Box mit neuem Sica 5.5H Studio Woofer - gazza-diy-audio.de
Most of the Gazza designs are veneered with SaRaiFo, just click through them.
Umbau der "Crazy" zur "Crazy Again" - Nachbauten - Roul DIY
And very actual without any surface treatment:
Attachments
@prariedog
I use heated (water bath) hide glue and later thinner with vinegar (you got to love that smell but improves tackiness). Really the classic way I learned that from my grandfather and his friends who did funiture repairs (as a hobbyist). His stuff from the 60s is still in the home of my parents, although I have to admit they did ocassionally do some repairs, e.g. a decade or so back due to high moisture and overuse, shellac just is not the most hard wearing stuff.
Moisterizing and then pressing flat for 10-14 days really helps and is necessary for warping. I tend to do two weeks with airing/drying out every couple of days then reclmaping for warped overly dry veneers. See the video posted previously goes into everything very professionally furniture grade but very easy. The saturation with slightly more liquidy glue than for joints also helps to bring out the grain and select the best (prettiest) side of the veneer, even if it looks messy before sanding and you can easily fix minor problems with wood powder and glue slurries or including smal veneer fill ins.
One of the most important things I have notived is you have to be extremely careful NOT to work against the grain too much/hard this can causes the grain to seperate. Even with an iron you can damage the grain, by seperating them if not backed.. That is why they use wood or paper backed so you have "perpendicular" grains/backed effect like plywood preventing microrips and/or seperation later. I agree using MDF is easiest, especial if it is covered with the foil stuff (melamine?). That way it acts as a uniform barrier and almost no prepping is required. Probably has a similar effect to paper backing I would imagine.
Then if you have flat surfaces pressing veneers with boards and weights while drying just gives you the confidence that stuff will stay there for the ages.
I just hate working with MDF that dust with the formaldehyde is some nasty, nasty s..., always use a resparator or FFP3 mask and vaccum everything really well. I am paranoid but that stuff is extemely unhealthy and will potentially get you years later, but easy to work with.
For up to 20-21mm birch ply is just usually better IMO (weight, sonics, strength, screws) at 25 mm the difference becomes much less noticable. MDF is cheaper and easy to work, especially industrially, but needs backing blocks for screws to not rip, or predrill and prime the holes. Here you can really mess up badly.
But work with whatever you think works best for you and what you are comfortable with, what is in your budget, available. Maybe better safe than sorry. I always assume people enjoy the woodworking part, but often it is just a means to an end.
Just looked and the paper backed "normal" veneers are less expensive than I had in memory and is definitely easier and faster, so I will back you. Go with MDF (mask!!!) and backed veneer
I however like real wood (birch ply, solid, inlays, or if you have the cash bamboo or phenolic resin plywoods such as Panzerholz are best but ridiculously hard on tools and a mega pain) I know an import source for veneers in Italy that does not (last time I checked) paper back special veneers but resells directly for marquetry that is just unbeatable in beauty and price.
Agree, prepping ply is a pain! I am just old fashioned / nostalgic and when I do woodworking want the smell and feel of wood. That for me is the fun.
I actually also really like good birch plywood bare with inlays alla Troels
Really curious to hear some feedback on the builds.
Oh a little thing you can do is get birch plywood (even BC or CC grades) and glue one sided 3mm mdf on top of it with the painted side pointing out for easier painting or veneering and also better sound IMO a friend of mine swears on that and using the heavier black mdf (basically HDF) for interior bracing. He says that creates a box inside of a box acoustic effect, but to me it just seems to be slightly quieter.
Cheers
W
P.S. If you want to be environmentally friendly use the recommended veener of Rese those are good choices.
I use heated (water bath) hide glue and later thinner with vinegar (you got to love that smell but improves tackiness
). Really the classic way I learned that from my grandfather and his friends who did funiture repairs (as a hobbyist). His stuff from the 60s is still in the home of my parents, although I have to admit they did ocassionally do some repairs, e.g. a decade or so back due to high moisture and overuse, shellac just is not the most hard wearing stuff. Moisterizing and then pressing flat for 10-14 days really helps and is necessary for warping. I tend to do two weeks with airing/drying out every couple of days then reclmaping for warped overly dry veneers. See the video posted previously goes into everything very professionally furniture grade but very easy. The saturation with slightly more liquidy glue than for joints also helps to bring out the grain and select the best (prettiest) side of the veneer, even if it looks messy before sanding and you can easily fix minor problems with wood powder and glue slurries or including smal veneer fill ins.
One of the most important things I have notived is you have to be extremely careful NOT to work against the grain too much/hard this can causes the grain to seperate. Even with an iron you can damage the grain, by seperating them if not backed.. That is why they use wood or paper backed so you have "perpendicular" grains/backed effect like plywood preventing microrips and/or seperation later. I agree using MDF is easiest, especial if it is covered with the foil stuff (melamine?). That way it acts as a uniform barrier and almost no prepping is required. Probably has a similar effect to paper backing I would imagine.
Then if you have flat surfaces pressing veneers with boards and weights while drying just gives you the confidence that stuff will stay there for the ages.
I just hate working with MDF that dust with the formaldehyde is some nasty, nasty s..., always use a resparator or FFP3 mask and vaccum everything really well. I am paranoid but that stuff is extemely unhealthy and will potentially get you years later, but easy to work with
. For up to 20-21mm birch ply is just usually better IMO (weight, sonics, strength, screws) at 25 mm the difference becomes much less noticable. MDF is cheaper and easy to work, especially industrially, but needs backing blocks for screws to not rip, or predrill and prime the holes. Here you can really mess up badly.
But work with whatever you think works best for you and what you are comfortable with, what is in your budget, available. Maybe better safe than sorry. I always assume people enjoy the woodworking part, but often it is just a means to an end.
Just looked and the paper backed "normal" veneers are less expensive than I had in memory and is definitely easier and faster, so I will back you
. Go with MDF (mask!!!) and backed veneer I however like real wood (birch ply, solid, inlays, or if you have the cash bamboo or phenolic resin plywoods such as Panzerholz are best but ridiculously hard on tools and a mega pain) I know an import source for veneers in Italy that does not (last time I checked) paper back special veneers but resells directly for marquetry that is just unbeatable in beauty and price.
Agree, prepping ply is a pain! I am just old fashioned / nostalgic and when I do woodworking want the smell and feel of wood. That for me is the fun.
I actually also really like good birch plywood bare with inlays alla Troels
Really curious to hear some feedback on the builds.
Oh a little thing you can do is get birch plywood (even BC or CC grades) and glue one sided 3mm mdf on top of it with the painted side pointing out for easier painting or veneering and also better sound IMO a friend of mine swears on that and using the heavier black mdf (basically HDF) for interior bracing. He says that creates a box inside of a box acoustic effect, but to me it just seems to be slightly quieter.
Cheers
W
P.S. If you want to be environmentally friendly use the recommended veener of Rese those are good choices.
That's clear, thx. The things Linesource mentions do show up in measurements. And I can't help thinking this (or any) 15" woofer is breaking up higher in it's passband, probably first at 500Hz when I look at the DS. Not only because of cone mass, but also due to air that won't go out of the way. Even more: breaking up is a design objective. And then, where does Mms come into the equation?
You got the radiation impedance thing quite right btw
So I'll try my best to answer this as I believe I understand the question, but more awake.
The role of Mms (The Moving mass is the mass of all parts that are in motion during an excursion. This also includes ‘air load’; The mass of the air against which the surface area pushes, by definition Mms. As far as I understand it technically moving mass is an important part of the resonant frequency, but also the Q factors.)
Also Mms (can) influence the CSD /waterfall plots if other factors are the same, inertia of mass in motion. So I assume that would influence PRAT and dynamics IMO.
As John Atkins of Stereophile, the master of measurements, lists Measuring Loudspeakers, Part Two Page 3 | Stereophile.com
"Many audiophiles talk about a loudspeaker having a "fast woofer." Fig.15 reveals that there can be no such thing. A woofer's risetime is dominated by the crossover low-pass filter, which discards the high-frequency information associated with a quick move away from the time axis. A "fast woofer" is therefore an oxymoron. However, I believe that when people talk about "fast woofers," what they're really referring to is after-the-event behavior associated with the Q or "Quality Factor" of the speaker system's low-frequency tuning. Does the woofer stop quickly after the exciting signal has passed? Or does it keep moving, adding low-frequency ringing—"boom"—to the speaker's sound?"
Then there is the issue with the size of the voice coil of 2" 02 vs. 2.5" for the 50 usually smaller voicecoils are better for lower wattage and tube amps.
As much as I think measurements are important in the end I trust my ears and especially the ears of people I trust
There has been a trend of a few years doing audio installations professionally and going to a ton of fairs that one of the apparent factors for better dynamics and PRAT was a lighter membrane, (which influences sensitivity) and having a powerful enough amp to be able to have a grip on the woofer, which in my experience is also easier when the Mms is lower, for similar drivers. Of course there are a ton of other factors involved and I am far, far away from understanding even a fraction of the factors and physics involved this has been a general trend. Does it apply here? Who knows, some probability. I also have little experience with the GHP closed box with high pass filter and how that will influence the sound of the 02 or 50. That I am really curious about and seeing/hearing.
But my gut would tell me that the 02's smaller voice coil, lower Voice coil inductance, lower Mms, higher Qts, and the DS smother behavior at 0 and 45 degrees off axis between 500 and 1500hz might make it a better candidate for integration with the horn and use with smaller wattage amps.
I also have a hunch that for very similar drivers with similar damping the added mass may add additional conebreakup at higher frequencies through Eigenmodes, more often than not,but here you would need to do/have Kippel plots/measurements and actual tests and this is definitely not worth it here.
But I believe you are right that the box would need to be 20-25% larger, and one of the nice aspects of this design is its size. Also it is unclear if the difference is audible at all, the added sensitivity as Rese said would only be about .6db and who knows if it would solve the crossover region 1-2khz.
Rese states Seite nicht gefunden - Der-Akustische-Untergrund
"Die akustische Phase ist im Übernahmebereich des Hochtöners nicht ganz korrekt, das verändert sich aber durch die tiefe des Horns im Zentimeterbereich und ist daher nicht wirklich relevant. Die Summenkurve ist sehr ausgewogen und linear und darauf kommt es im Endeffekt an, wenn auch die Winkelmessungen dazu passen."
Translation:
"That the acoustic phase in the crossover region is not entirely correct, due to the differnt depth of the horn (probably acoustic centers differing, not 100% clear) in a region of centimeters and because of this is not really relevant. The summation-curve is very ballanced and linear and this is what matters in the end, if the angular measurements match with it."
So assuming do to non time aligned acoustic centers there are phase differences that the 02 vs. 50 might not adress. Curious if adjusting angle alla Troels The Loudspeaker 3 of tilting back the horn would change that and if that would be audible?
Is that what you were asking?
Cheers
W
@tubeglow49
My use of MDF as a substrate has to do with smaller panels. I agree it is nasty stuff, though perhaps the formaldehyde free version is less so. I use a dust extractor on most of my dust producting machines, a ceiling mounted dust extractor, and do my best to wear a mask, and hearing protection, as well. At least having a separate work shop keeps the dust out of the house.
I haven't seen the black MDF here ... too exotic, I suppose. This is the land of spruce 2 x 4s and OSB, though Baltic Birch plywood is available. I bring in my wood and regular veneers from Ontario,and additional veneers from the US.
I built the ktichen cabinets for the house we're in back in '97 and was in a hurry to get them completed. They were all cherry rails and stiles with cherry veneered panels. Due to the rush, I did the iron on method for the panels and I think there are only one or two where the veneer hasn't split. A remake of all the cabinet doors is scheduled for this spring, and I'll be using paper backed cherry veneer with honey locust rails and stiles.
My use of MDF as a substrate has to do with smaller panels. I agree it is nasty stuff, though perhaps the formaldehyde free version is less so. I use a dust extractor on most of my dust producting machines, a ceiling mounted dust extractor, and do my best to wear a mask, and hearing protection, as well. At least having a separate work shop keeps the dust out of the house.
I haven't seen the black MDF here ... too exotic, I suppose. This is the land of spruce 2 x 4s and OSB, though Baltic Birch plywood is available. I bring in my wood and regular veneers from Ontario,and additional veneers from the US.
I built the ktichen cabinets for the house we're in back in '97 and was in a hurry to get them completed. They were all cherry rails and stiles with cherry veneered panels. Due to the rush, I did the iron on method for the panels and I think there are only one or two where the veneer hasn't split. A remake of all the cabinet doors is scheduled for this spring, and I'll be using paper backed cherry veneer with honey locust rails and stiles.
[QUOTE
I just hate working with MDF that dust with the formaldehyde is some nasty, nasty s..., always use a resparator or FFP3 mask and vaccum everything really well. I am paranoid but that stuff is extemely unhealthy and will potentially get you years later, but easy to work with.
[/QUOTE]
Just use E0 MDF and you're fine with formaldehyde! It's the glue that contained formaldehyde, but it's long gone in Europe at least. Btw, same formaldehyde based glue was used in plywood, so be careful to advice people using "safe" materials...
I just hate working with MDF that dust with the formaldehyde is some nasty, nasty s..., always use a resparator or FFP3 mask and vaccum everything really well. I am paranoid but that stuff is extemely unhealthy and will potentially get you years later, but easy to work with
. [/QUOTE]
Just use E0 MDF and you're fine with formaldehyde! It's the glue that contained formaldehyde, but it's long gone in Europe at least. Btw, same formaldehyde based glue was used in plywood, so be careful to advice people using "safe" materials...
I know that Troels attaches many importance to this. It sounds very logical at first. But if you think about it more closely, the time aligned acoustic centers changes with every centimeter / inch compared to the listening position. So you would always have to sit in exactly the same position and at a fixed height so that this would be an advantage when listening. Not possible in practice.
Troels likes to keep this quiet and does not provide any measurements. To do this, he regularly builds wild fronts with a few surfaces that cause reflections.
A bad compromise in my opinion.
To compare the two LaVoce woofers:
Yes, the .02 is a little louder and has a little lower inductance, but the differences are really very small. The level difference also comes from the slightly lower impedance of the .02 - so that's not a real advantage. A larger coil drives the large membrane better and the BxL (force factor) is also higher on the .50.
You shouldn't forget that the .50 is already one of the 15 "with a relatively light mms and low inductance. Today I would maybe take the WXF 15.800 and set it up as a bass reflex. That would be interesting too - many ways lead to a good result.
Well you did a pretty good job veneering if in a kitchen environment some veneers lasted almost 25 years with daily hard use, and constant cleaning. Next to a boat or a tropical environment that is some of the toughest. I don't know a professional carpenter that would have guaranteed a veneer job in a kitchen for 20 years, probably maximum 10 years. With the temp and hummidity differences the paper backing would probably buffer some contractions and with that amount of surface area it's definitely the way to go timewise.
Here in Italy we are in the exact oposite situation. There is a tradition of realy fine woodworking with exotic hardwoods, crazy abstract designs using fancy building woods and lots of veneering, and you can evem find ancient wood beams from the 1600s very easily and "relatively" cheaply, however construction wood, or any wood is super expensive. Everything is built of stone and wood is considered a precious resource.
Take a look at what we pay for wood at Leroy Merlin ( European HomeDepot)
Listello grezzo abete 2 m x 100 mm, Sp 100 mm 2 pezzi. Prezzo online | Leroy Merlin
2m 4"x4" equivalent fir post not even pressurized 30€! that's 45 Canadian Dollars.
For wood working Canada is the place I have in mind of being the Mecca plus shipping I believe was very reasonable in US, (so probably also Canada?).
Forget the black MDF, it can look good oiled on the fronts, see Troels, but is about twice as expensive and heavy as MDF. If you can get baltic birch just use that unless you have excess lying around or have special theories on acoustics using composite multi wood/material/density type builds, as my friend has
OSB when sealed/hardened for bracing is not terrible either, mainly dirt cheap (comparatively here) and if you have builds requiring a lot of wood a reasonable approach. Disclaimer for others, do not use for speakers, if you have to, use cheap ply but MDF is better!
Ah Canada, "Europe" of the Americas, Ontario also has a nice mix of population density and nature compared to some other areas of Canada.... Toronto is a cool "real" world city. Nice place to live, ah I miss traveling
Stay safe with that MDF and work outside your living areas. Have no experience with the formaldehyde free MDF, probably much better but have never seen it here.
Looks like you have enough projects to keep you going for another wave of COVID
Cheers
W
Here in Italy we are in the exact oposite situation. There is a tradition of realy fine woodworking with exotic hardwoods, crazy abstract designs using fancy building woods and lots of veneering, and you can evem find ancient wood beams from the 1600s very easily and "relatively" cheaply, however construction wood, or any wood is super expensive. Everything is built of stone and wood is considered a precious resource.
Take a look at what we pay for wood at Leroy Merlin ( European HomeDepot)
Listello grezzo abete 2 m x 100 mm, Sp 100 mm 2 pezzi. Prezzo online | Leroy Merlin
2m 4"x4" equivalent fir post not even pressurized 30€! that's 45 Canadian Dollars.
For wood working Canada is the place I have in mind of being the Mecca
plus shipping I believe was very reasonable in US, (so probably also Canada?). Forget the black MDF, it can look good oiled on the fronts, see Troels, but is about twice as expensive and heavy as MDF. If you can get baltic birch just use that unless you have excess lying around or have special theories on acoustics using composite multi wood/material/density type builds, as my friend has
OSB when sealed/hardened for bracing is not terrible either, mainly dirt cheap (comparatively here
) and if you have builds requiring a lot of wood a reasonable approach. Disclaimer for others, do not use for speakers, if you have to, use cheap ply but MDF is better!Ah Canada, "Europe" of the Americas, Ontario also has a nice mix of population density and nature compared to some other areas of Canada.... Toronto is a cool "real" world city. Nice place to live, ah I miss traveling
Stay safe with that MDF and work outside your living areas. Have no experience with the formaldehyde free MDF, probably much better but have never seen it here.
Looks like you have enough projects to keep you going for another wave of COVID
Cheers
W
@ Rese
I will again defend Troels here. Most DIY is to maximize cost/benefits, whereas Troels really is a bit of a perfectionist and serious audiophile, who spends months, years and decades getting his designs right, comparing the speaker integration to various references, e.g. Quads. When you buy from him or Tony at Humble Hommade Hifi you pay for their ears and reputation and many trials.
Troels standards are to be able to demonstrate sound benefits even in a 10-25.000€ component chain, which he has. I know you don't believe in this, but when the Munich High End is open again see if you can listen to the difference of some levels of crossovers with better caps and parts. Mundorf offered that a few years back, some manufacturers will also display various "levels" or "special additions" of their crossovers if you have a chat with them.
Or see a HumbleHifi matched crossover and compare with a clone. The engineer in you will say no but the music lover might say yes, or not Whatever makes you happy.
When you start trying to get those additional "5%" the ROI just goes way down and you need to address everything. In these situations truely everything plays a role, first room, but then matching of all components, cables, parts, vibration control/isolation, power line, crossovers, impedance matching. Here you don'T want to skimp on the speakers if everything else is where it could be, but even here more expensive is not better. Better matched is usually better.
Troels approach in part now seems to be using lower order crossovers, often through time alignment, but also for reducing crossover costs, e.g. by first order, since he likes the benefits of expensive caps
Is time alignment necessary, absolutley not.
There is just "something" with time algined speakers, if you listen to Thiel or Vandersteen, or even a full range such as Cube or Voxativ. Can good sound be done without, obviously. The important thing is knowing what you want, what approach gets the music to have the emotional impact for YOU. If you like the time aligned or first order approach, or high efficiency, then build something along those lines. If you like small baffles or ceramic drivers, or electrostatics or OB these are all valid. Troels has various builds (no electorstatics) and gives options for those wanting to go different routes, but you need to be able to read between the lines.
And then there is the fact that there are so many other factors that in reality are more important for the majority of music listeners, such as design/look, size, WAF, "flexible" near wall placement, show off/bragging value, specs/measurement obsession, etc. and also if they rather save some money and spend it on electronics or other places that make them happy, e.g. building a house.
Looking at the depth of the horn in the Asathor time alignment will not be possible here.
Yours is a great design. Looks like a real winner in terms of offering large membrane area, horn, small size, high sensitivity and unbeatable cost in an easy build.
For me it's like comparing a Skoda Octavia (great car) and Troels is trying to build an Audi RS6 Allroad in his TL series. Basically all VWs but there IS a difference. Will one make you happier than the other, especially with money saved, who knows, you have to know.
To put down one or the other is a bit silly or snobbish IMO.
Troels does do quite a bit more measurements and tests off axis response and lets people sit out of the sweet spot in his home (I have heard, never been there). He has been "burned" by posting too many measurements and in the end his starting point is measurements and then comes testing and listening and tweaking, etc. Between his many builds and extensive customer support and custom builds (several hundred) he has a reputation for a reason, but also a style that may not be what you like.
I already mentioned he just did a Scanspeak Elipticor 15" project that was technically ideal, time aligned and measured perfecty but was not worth it to his ears and had to scrap 5-10k€. It's what he does full time for the last decade.
Back to the options on your Asathor, yeah BR might be an option, but then it gets bigger, you have the noise of the ports and not that punchiness of closed box but probably a better low end. Many options and looking at the build the difference between the 02 and 50 are relatively minor, I agree.
If someone wants to play with it great, mostly it was a test of the LaVoce that seem to punch above their weight/price class and producing a product yourself that will have a high appeal for many diyers.
Oh gotta get back to work
Cheers
W
I will again defend Troels here. Most DIY is to maximize cost/benefits, whereas Troels really is a bit of a perfectionist and serious audiophile, who spends months, years and decades getting his designs right, comparing the speaker integration to various references, e.g. Quads. When you buy from him or Tony at Humble Hommade Hifi you pay for their ears and reputation and many trials.
Troels standards are to be able to demonstrate sound benefits even in a 10-25.000€ component chain, which he has. I know you don't believe in this, but when the Munich High End is open again see if you can listen to the difference of some levels of crossovers with better caps and parts. Mundorf offered that a few years back, some manufacturers will also display various "levels" or "special additions" of their crossovers if you have a chat with them.
Or see a HumbleHifi matched crossover and compare with a clone. The engineer in you will say no but the music lover might say yes, or not
Whatever makes you happy.When you start trying to get those additional "5%" the ROI just goes way down and you need to address everything. In these situations truely everything plays a role, first room, but then matching of all components, cables, parts, vibration control/isolation, power line, crossovers, impedance matching. Here you don'T want to skimp on the speakers if everything else is where it could be, but even here more expensive is not better. Better matched is usually better.
Troels approach in part now seems to be using lower order crossovers, often through time alignment, but also for reducing crossover costs, e.g. by first order, since he likes the benefits of expensive caps
Is time alignment necessary, absolutley not.
There is just "something" with time algined speakers, if you listen to Thiel or Vandersteen, or even a full range such as Cube or Voxativ. Can good sound be done without, obviously. The important thing is knowing what you want, what approach gets the music to have the emotional impact for YOU. If you like the time aligned or first order approach, or high efficiency, then build something along those lines. If you like small baffles or ceramic drivers, or electrostatics or OB these are all valid. Troels has various builds (no electorstatics
) and gives options for those wanting to go different routes, but you need to be able to read between the lines. And then there is the fact that there are so many other factors that in reality are more important for the majority of music listeners, such as design/look, size, WAF, "flexible" near wall placement, show off/bragging value, specs/measurement obsession, etc. and also if they rather save some money and spend it on electronics or other places that make them happy, e.g. building a house.
Looking at the depth of the horn in the Asathor time alignment will not be possible here.
Yours is a great design. Looks like a real winner in terms of offering large membrane area, horn, small size, high sensitivity and unbeatable cost in an easy build.
For me it's like comparing a Skoda Octavia (great car) and Troels is trying to build an Audi RS6 Allroad in his TL series. Basically all VWs but there IS a difference. Will one make you happier than the other, especially with money saved, who knows, you have to know.
To put down one or the other is a bit silly or snobbish IMO.
Troels does do quite a bit more measurements and tests off axis response and lets people sit out of the sweet spot in his home (I have heard, never been there). He has been "burned" by posting too many measurements and in the end his starting point is measurements and then comes testing and listening and tweaking, etc. Between his many builds and extensive customer support and custom builds (several hundred) he has a reputation for a reason, but also a style that may not be what you like.
I already mentioned he just did a Scanspeak Elipticor 15" project that was technically ideal, time aligned and measured perfecty but was not worth it to his ears and had to scrap 5-10k€. It's what he does full time for the last decade.
Back to the options on your Asathor, yeah BR might be an option, but then it gets bigger, you have the noise of the ports and not that punchiness of closed box but probably a better low end. Many options and looking at the build the difference between the 02 and 50 are relatively minor, I agree.
If someone wants to play with it great, mostly it was a test of the LaVoce that seem to punch above their weight/price class and producing a product yourself that will have a high appeal for many diyers.
Oh gotta get back to work
Cheers
W
Without going into every detail: I've been to the HighEnd in Munich very often, which is only about 45 minutes by car from me. What I learned there in particular is how people can be influenced by demonstrations. Suggestion is so powerful in the hi-fi world.
After High-End 2012 I met a designer who a few years earlier had given up a very well-paid engineering job at one of the largest German companies in order to make high-end loudspeakers. We're talking about price ranges equivalent to an Aventador SVJ. Just to stick with the VW comparison.
He was really amused about how much money you can make with things like cables or x-over parts. The loudspeakers are extremely expensive, but also extremely complex to produce. With cables, the effort is ridiculous and the profit margin is astronomical. That's why he launched his own line of cables, although he himself says that every good cable has exactly the same effect.
A good friend of mine is a developer in this industry, but also in the professional field. For example, Klippel commissioned him to build a measuring amplifier because he couldn't find one that met his requirements.
I also talked to him for a long time. He is sometimes even shocked about what is sold in the high-end industry and what fairy tales people are told. And I feel the same way.
Just take a look at Voxativ, which you also mentioned. The boxes measure up terribly and I've heard them too, they don't sound good - to say the least. But because there are price tags of up to € 350,000 per pair on them, there are customers.
I don't want to take the thread that far from the actual topic, so let's get back to the Asathor, please.
After High-End 2012 I met a designer who a few years earlier had given up a very well-paid engineering job at one of the largest German companies in order to make high-end loudspeakers. We're talking about price ranges equivalent to an Aventador SVJ. Just to stick with the VW comparison.
He was really amused about how much money you can make with things like cables or x-over parts. The loudspeakers are extremely expensive, but also extremely complex to produce. With cables, the effort is ridiculous and the profit margin is astronomical. That's why he launched his own line of cables, although he himself says that every good cable has exactly the same effect.
A good friend of mine is a developer in this industry, but also in the professional field. For example, Klippel commissioned him to build a measuring amplifier because he couldn't find one that met his requirements.
I also talked to him for a long time. He is sometimes even shocked about what is sold in the high-end industry and what fairy tales people are told. And I feel the same way.
Just take a look at Voxativ, which you also mentioned. The boxes measure up terribly and I've heard them too, they don't sound good - to say the least. But because there are price tags of up to € 350,000 per pair on them, there are customers.
I don't want to take the thread that far from the actual topic, so let's get back to the Asathor, please.
Attachments
Thank you, Rese66! For some reason PE doesn't stock that driver. The parts cost is fantastic. If you were going to enlarge the volume for a BR cab, would you stick with this driver, and if yes, what volume and tune would use? I'm considering this build, but I don't want to have to run subs. Glenn.
@ peterbrorsson
Thanks for the insight, I was under the impression that most ply and particleboard in Europe is lower or 01. And that there is a degassing that goes on and are safe after a few weeks, whereas this degassing does not happen with MDF. And that in general baltic birch plywood is safe,but this might just be my sources, so good advice to check
I need to look into this further for the future build and have not used MDF in quite a few years, and maybe my GF's nephew will want to use the stuff or other materials.
I always use a resperator and with ffp3 masks cost these days it's almost easier to get a respirator for 25€ on Amazon than ffp3s. Using respirator or at least FFP2 masks for any construction work with dust is highly recommended, even untreated wood is not really healthy
Cheers
Thanks for the insight, I was under the impression that most ply and particleboard in Europe is lower or 01. And that there is a degassing that goes on and are safe after a few weeks, whereas this degassing does not happen with MDF. And that in general baltic birch plywood is safe,but this might just be my sources, so good advice to check
I need to look into this further for the future build and have not used MDF in quite a few years, and maybe my GF's nephew will want to use the stuff or other materials.
I always use a resperator and with ffp3 masks cost these days it's almost easier to get a respirator for 25€ on Amazon than ffp3s. Using respirator or at least FFP2 masks for any construction work with dust is highly recommended, even untreated wood is not really healthy
Cheers