Hand in hand
One should be judged on what one says and how one acts, not by what one is. I do, on the other hand, dislike any form of nicknaming. Suppose you'd meet someone on the street and wouldn't know he's real name? But, on the other hand, you don't go off parading your personal information to simply anyone (indentity and personal information are tightly linked nowadays).
One should be judged on what one says and how one acts, not by what one is. I do, on the other hand, dislike any form of nicknaming. Suppose you'd meet someone on the street and wouldn't know he's real name? But, on the other hand, you don't go off parading your personal information to simply anyone (indentity and personal information are tightly linked nowadays).
Re: Belief Systems Again.....
Hi,
Ahhm, like dialectic or scientific materialism, which is a proofless belief system!?
May I propose as a closing argument writings other than my own (my abilities are rather small, my understanding is limited and my enlish leaves much to be desired) a different view to any so far propagated here? Those who wish to discuss things can do so with me directly.
==================================
Scientific Illuminism:
A description formulated in 6 different ways.
[Extracted from the Equinox Volume 1 Number 2]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
We perceive in the sensible world, Sorrow. Ultimately that is; we admit the Existence of a Problem requiring solution.
We accept the proofs of Hume, Kant, Herbert Spencer, Fuller, and others of this thesis:
The Ratiocinative Faculty or Reason of Man contains in its essential nature an element of self-contradiction.
Following on this, we say:
If any resolution there be of these two problems, the Vanity of Life and the Vanity of Thought, it must be in the attainment of a Consciousness which transcends both of them. Let us call this supernormal consciousness, or, for want of a better name, "Spiritual Experience."
Faith has been proposed as a remedy. But we perceive many incompatible forms of Faith founded on Authority --- The Vedas, The Quran, The Bible; Buddha, Christ, Joseph Smith. To choose between the we must resort to reason, already shown to be a fallacious guide.
There is only one Rock which Scepticism cannot shake; the Rock of Experience.
We have therefore endeavoured to eliminate from the conditions of acquiring Spiritual Experience its dogmatic, theological, accidental, climatic and other inessential elements.
We require the employment of a strictly scientific method. The mind of the seeker must be unbiased: all prejudice and other sources of error must be perceived as such and extirpated.
We have therefore devised a Syncretic-Eclectic Method combining the essentials of all methods, rejecting all their trammels, to attack the Problem, through exact experiments and not by guesses.
For each pupil we recommend a different method (in detail) suited to his needs; just as a physician prescribes the medicine proper to each particular patient.
We further believe that the Consummation of Spiritual Experience is reflected into the spheres of intellect and action as Genius, so that by taking an ordinary man we can by training produce a Master.
This thesis requires proof: we hope to supply such proof by producing Genius to order.
II
There is no hope in physical life, since death of the individual, the race, and ultimately the planet, ends all.
There is no hope in reason, since it contradicts itself, and is in any case no more than a reflection upon the facts of physical life.
What hope there may be in Investigation of the physical facts of Nature on Scientific lines is already actively sought after by a powerful and well-organized body of men of perfect probity and high capacity.
There is no hope in Faith, for there are many warring Faiths, all equally positive.
The adepts of Spiritual Experience promise us wonderful things, the Perception of Truth, and the Conquest of Sorrow, and there is enough unity in their method to make an Eclectic System possible.
We are determined to investigate this matter most thoroughly on Scientific lines.
III
We are Mystics, ever eagerly seeking a solution of unpleasant facts.
We are Men of Science, ever eagerly acquiring pertinent facts.
We are Sceptics, ever eagerly examining those facts.
We are Philosophers, ever eagerly classifying and co-ordinating those well-criticised facts.
We are Epicureans, ever eagerly enjoying the unification of those facts.
We are Philanthropists, ever eagerly transmitting our knowledge of those facts to others.
Further, we are Syncretists, taking truth from all systems, ancient and modern; and Eclectics, ruthlessly discarding the inessential factors in any one system, however perfect.
IV
Faith, Life, Philosophy have failed.
Science is already established.
Mysticism, being based on pure experience, is always a vital force; but owing to the lack of trained observation, has always been a mass of error. Spiritual Experience, interpreted in the terms of Intellect, is distorted; just as sunrise shows the grass green and the sea blue. Both were invisible until sunrise; yet the diversity of colour is not in the sun, but in the objects on which its light falls, and their contradiction does not prove the sun to be an illusion.
We shall correct Mysticism (or Illuminism) by Science, and explain Science by Illuminism.
V
We have one method, that of Science.
We have one aim, that of Religion.
VI
There was once an Inhabitant in a land called Utopia who complained to the Water Company that his water was impure.
"No," answered the Water Man, "it can't be impure, for we filter it."
"Oh indeed!" replied the Inhabitant, "but my wife died from drinking it."
"No," said the Water Man; "I assure you that this water comes from the purest springs in Utopia; further, that water, however impure, cannot hurt anybody; further, that I have a certificate of its purity from the Water Company itself."
"The people who pay you!" sneered the Inhabitant. "For your other points, Haeckel has proved that all water is poison, and I believe you get your water from a cesspool. Why, look at it!"
"And beautiful clear water it is!" said the Water Man. "Limpid as crystal. Worth a guinea a drop!"
"About what you charge for it!" retorted the incensed Inhabitant. "It looks fairly clear, I admit, in the twilight. But that is not the point. A poison need not cloud water."
"But," urged the other, "one of our directors is a prophet, and he prophesied --- clearly, in so many words --- that the water would be pure this year. And besides, our first founder was a holy man, who performed a special miracle to make it pure for ever!"
"Your evidence is as tainted as your water," replied the now infuriated householder.
So off they went to the Judge.
The Judge heard the case carefully. "My good friends!" said he, "you've neither of you got a leg to stand on; for in all you say there is not one grain of proof. --- The case is dismissed."
The Water Inspector rose jubilant, when from the body of the Court came a still small voice.
"Might I respectfully suggest, your Worship, that the water in question be examined through my Microscope?"
"What in thunder is a Microscope?" cried the three in chorus.
"An instrument, your Worship, that I have constructed on the admitted principles of optics, to demonstrate by experience what these gentlemen are arguing about "a priori" and on hearsay."
Then they both rose up against him, and cursed him.
"Unscientific balderdash!" said the Water Man, for the first time speaking respectfully of Science.
"Blasphemous Nonsense!" said the Inhabitant, for the first time speaking respectfully of Religion.
"Wait and see," said the Judge; for he was a just Judge.
Then the Man with the Microscope explained the uses of this new and strange instrument. And the Judge patiently investigated all sources of error, and concluded in the end that the instrument was a true revealer of the secrets of the water. And he pronounced just judgment.
But the others were blinded by passion and self-interest. They only quarrelled more noisily, and were finally turned out of court. But the Judge caused the Man with the Microscope to be appointed Government Analyst at Pounds12,000 a year.
Now the Water Man is the Believer, and the Inhabitant the Unbeliever. The Judge is the Agnostic --- in Huxley's sense of the word; and the Man with the Microscope is the Scientific Illuminist.
This, then, in one language or another, is our philosophical position. But for those who are not content with this, let it be said that there is something more behind and beyond.
Sayonara, L.V.X.
Hi,
Ahhm, like dialectic or scientific materialism, which is a proofless belief system!?
May I propose as a closing argument writings other than my own (my abilities are rather small, my understanding is limited and my enlish leaves much to be desired) a different view to any so far propagated here? Those who wish to discuss things can do so with me directly.
==================================
Scientific Illuminism:
A description formulated in 6 different ways.
[Extracted from the Equinox Volume 1 Number 2]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
We perceive in the sensible world, Sorrow. Ultimately that is; we admit the Existence of a Problem requiring solution.
We accept the proofs of Hume, Kant, Herbert Spencer, Fuller, and others of this thesis:
The Ratiocinative Faculty or Reason of Man contains in its essential nature an element of self-contradiction.
Following on this, we say:
If any resolution there be of these two problems, the Vanity of Life and the Vanity of Thought, it must be in the attainment of a Consciousness which transcends both of them. Let us call this supernormal consciousness, or, for want of a better name, "Spiritual Experience."
Faith has been proposed as a remedy. But we perceive many incompatible forms of Faith founded on Authority --- The Vedas, The Quran, The Bible; Buddha, Christ, Joseph Smith. To choose between the we must resort to reason, already shown to be a fallacious guide.
There is only one Rock which Scepticism cannot shake; the Rock of Experience.
We have therefore endeavoured to eliminate from the conditions of acquiring Spiritual Experience its dogmatic, theological, accidental, climatic and other inessential elements.
We require the employment of a strictly scientific method. The mind of the seeker must be unbiased: all prejudice and other sources of error must be perceived as such and extirpated.
We have therefore devised a Syncretic-Eclectic Method combining the essentials of all methods, rejecting all their trammels, to attack the Problem, through exact experiments and not by guesses.
For each pupil we recommend a different method (in detail) suited to his needs; just as a physician prescribes the medicine proper to each particular patient.
We further believe that the Consummation of Spiritual Experience is reflected into the spheres of intellect and action as Genius, so that by taking an ordinary man we can by training produce a Master.
This thesis requires proof: we hope to supply such proof by producing Genius to order.
II
There is no hope in physical life, since death of the individual, the race, and ultimately the planet, ends all.
There is no hope in reason, since it contradicts itself, and is in any case no more than a reflection upon the facts of physical life.
What hope there may be in Investigation of the physical facts of Nature on Scientific lines is already actively sought after by a powerful and well-organized body of men of perfect probity and high capacity.
There is no hope in Faith, for there are many warring Faiths, all equally positive.
The adepts of Spiritual Experience promise us wonderful things, the Perception of Truth, and the Conquest of Sorrow, and there is enough unity in their method to make an Eclectic System possible.
We are determined to investigate this matter most thoroughly on Scientific lines.
III
We are Mystics, ever eagerly seeking a solution of unpleasant facts.
We are Men of Science, ever eagerly acquiring pertinent facts.
We are Sceptics, ever eagerly examining those facts.
We are Philosophers, ever eagerly classifying and co-ordinating those well-criticised facts.
We are Epicureans, ever eagerly enjoying the unification of those facts.
We are Philanthropists, ever eagerly transmitting our knowledge of those facts to others.
Further, we are Syncretists, taking truth from all systems, ancient and modern; and Eclectics, ruthlessly discarding the inessential factors in any one system, however perfect.
IV
Faith, Life, Philosophy have failed.
Science is already established.
Mysticism, being based on pure experience, is always a vital force; but owing to the lack of trained observation, has always been a mass of error. Spiritual Experience, interpreted in the terms of Intellect, is distorted; just as sunrise shows the grass green and the sea blue. Both were invisible until sunrise; yet the diversity of colour is not in the sun, but in the objects on which its light falls, and their contradiction does not prove the sun to be an illusion.
We shall correct Mysticism (or Illuminism) by Science, and explain Science by Illuminism.
V
We have one method, that of Science.
We have one aim, that of Religion.
VI
There was once an Inhabitant in a land called Utopia who complained to the Water Company that his water was impure.
"No," answered the Water Man, "it can't be impure, for we filter it."
"Oh indeed!" replied the Inhabitant, "but my wife died from drinking it."
"No," said the Water Man; "I assure you that this water comes from the purest springs in Utopia; further, that water, however impure, cannot hurt anybody; further, that I have a certificate of its purity from the Water Company itself."
"The people who pay you!" sneered the Inhabitant. "For your other points, Haeckel has proved that all water is poison, and I believe you get your water from a cesspool. Why, look at it!"
"And beautiful clear water it is!" said the Water Man. "Limpid as crystal. Worth a guinea a drop!"
"About what you charge for it!" retorted the incensed Inhabitant. "It looks fairly clear, I admit, in the twilight. But that is not the point. A poison need not cloud water."
"But," urged the other, "one of our directors is a prophet, and he prophesied --- clearly, in so many words --- that the water would be pure this year. And besides, our first founder was a holy man, who performed a special miracle to make it pure for ever!"
"Your evidence is as tainted as your water," replied the now infuriated householder.
So off they went to the Judge.
The Judge heard the case carefully. "My good friends!" said he, "you've neither of you got a leg to stand on; for in all you say there is not one grain of proof. --- The case is dismissed."
The Water Inspector rose jubilant, when from the body of the Court came a still small voice.
"Might I respectfully suggest, your Worship, that the water in question be examined through my Microscope?"
"What in thunder is a Microscope?" cried the three in chorus.
"An instrument, your Worship, that I have constructed on the admitted principles of optics, to demonstrate by experience what these gentlemen are arguing about "a priori" and on hearsay."
Then they both rose up against him, and cursed him.
"Unscientific balderdash!" said the Water Man, for the first time speaking respectfully of Science.
"Blasphemous Nonsense!" said the Inhabitant, for the first time speaking respectfully of Religion.
"Wait and see," said the Judge; for he was a just Judge.
Then the Man with the Microscope explained the uses of this new and strange instrument. And the Judge patiently investigated all sources of error, and concluded in the end that the instrument was a true revealer of the secrets of the water. And he pronounced just judgment.
But the others were blinded by passion and self-interest. They only quarrelled more noisily, and were finally turned out of court. But the Judge caused the Man with the Microscope to be appointed Government Analyst at Pounds12,000 a year.
Now the Water Man is the Believer, and the Inhabitant the Unbeliever. The Judge is the Agnostic --- in Huxley's sense of the word; and the Man with the Microscope is the Scientific Illuminist.
This, then, in one language or another, is our philosophical position. But for those who are not content with this, let it be said that there is something more behind and beyond.
Sayonara, L.V.X.
Re: Belief Systems Again.....
Eric,
Why do we have to be known by the name we were giving when hatched. Thorsten came from behind the iron curtain and i am sure has passed thru many transitions. I have to been many of the places he seems to have been. As a bit of a celebrity, his curiculum vita is spread out all over the net. I see no reason for him not to use whatever name he likes.
dave
mrfeedback said:
Eric,
Why do we have to be known by the name we were giving when hatched. Thorsten came from behind the iron curtain and i am sure has passed thru many transitions. I have to been many of the places he seems to have been. As a bit of a celebrity, his curiculum vita is spread out all over the net. I see no reason for him not to use whatever name he likes.
dave
Hi,
Ahhm, yes. I admit that I find particle physics fascinating too. And yes, There are strong parallels between classic alchemie and modern nuclear/quantum physics and not just the superficial ones of the transmutation of elements.
Yup. And the Scientific Illuminist stands in the circle, having firmly placed a foot wearing blue sock in the red halve of the circle, while other foot with a red sock is is in the blue halve of the circle. And while all the different processions keep going around in circles they pour scorn on the Illuminist for "not moving ahead".
We require the Thesis, Antithesis and finally Synthesis for understanding. The thesis of mysticism "I feel" and the Antithesis of science "There is nothing beyound our senses" are two sides of the same coin. We need to appreciate both sides to gain value from spending that coin.
Sayonara, 93
Ahhm, yes. I admit that I find particle physics fascinating too. And yes, There are strong parallels between classic alchemie and modern nuclear/quantum physics and not just the superficial ones of the transmutation of elements.
Yup. And the Scientific Illuminist stands in the circle, having firmly placed a foot wearing blue sock in the red halve of the circle, while other foot with a red sock is is in the blue halve of the circle. And while all the different processions keep going around in circles they pour scorn on the Illuminist for "not moving ahead".
We require the Thesis, Antithesis and finally Synthesis for understanding. The thesis of mysticism "I feel" and the Antithesis of science "There is nothing beyound our senses" are two sides of the same coin. We need to appreciate both sides to gain value from spending that coin.
Sayonara, 93
Kuei Yang Wang said:
When i worked at the hifi store, i had two identical pair of sneakers -- with the exception that one pair was blue & red, and the other was red & blue. People used to ask why i had two different sneakers on and i always said, "but they are the same, just different colours".
dave
Since everyone seems to be trying to outdo one another by being deeper-than-thou, I thought I'd beat someone to the punch by pointing out that God is dog spelled backwards.
That's my contribution.
Grey
P.S.: I was a philosophy major for a while...until I realized that in the entire history of philosophy <i>not one</i> of the core issues has been resolved to the satisfation of all parties. I prefer science. You've got a few years of vociferous disagreement when a new idea is introduced, then it gets settled one way or another and people move on. That's how progress is made. Threads like this are for people who've got a lot more free time on their hands than I do.
That's my contribution.
Grey
P.S.: I was a philosophy major for a while...until I realized that in the entire history of philosophy <i>not one</i> of the core issues has been resolved to the satisfation of all parties. I prefer science. You've got a few years of vociferous disagreement when a new idea is introduced, then it gets settled one way or another and people move on. That's how progress is made. Threads like this are for people who've got a lot more free time on their hands than I do.
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