I would welcome a visit as perhaps i could pry some crossover help out of you. I have to bils final cabs and will open thread once it starts. Bigger question for me is the horn/driver combo. I would love tonstick with 1.4", but there are limited horns available. Leaves current pyle ph916 or diy yuichi, both being within needed size. Looked into cloning the h9800(i think) used in actual k2, but it was made for a specific compression driver that is out of my range and difficult to het even with suffocient cash flow.
Thanks for the 15fr400 recomendation Buzz. I'll do some more searching about that driver.
This is the only other diyaudio hf144 project I can find - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...way-hf144-compression-driver-lth142-horn.html
He move to a Australian forum thread with lots of nice measurements and minidsp malarkey - active 2 way speaker using FaitalPro HF144 and Lorantz C390X B1 continued... - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
He ends up using this 1.4" horn from 18sound - http://www.eighteensound.it/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1464.PDF
Oh and will you guys stop arranging play dates that are 3918 miles away?
Me jealous? Noooooooooooo
This is the only other diyaudio hf144 project I can find - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...way-hf144-compression-driver-lth142-horn.html
He move to a Australian forum thread with lots of nice measurements and minidsp malarkey - active 2 way speaker using FaitalPro HF144 and Lorantz C390X B1 continued... - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
He ends up using this 1.4" horn from 18sound - http://www.eighteensound.it/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1464.PDF
Oh and will you guys stop arranging play dates that are 3918 miles away?
Me jealous? Noooooooooooo
While the XT may have better CD control, it is also a narrow dispersion horn and would have a fairly narrow sweet spot. I may look into a SEOS 15 or 18 for a 1.4" driver or at least try the SEOS 15 with 1". I will have a pocket for the horn/compression driver combo so that other options can be inserted and tried, sorta like what Wardweb's 3-way.
http://wardsweb.org/audio/Widgets/w02.jpg
Here is the 15pr400 along with TD15m. The 15pr seems to respond more to the box it is put in and does not need the same overall size to get down as low. Ill post sims of my box tonight when i get home.
http://cdn.avsforum.com/8/8f/8fc5386d_vbattach215283.jpeg
http://wardsweb.org/audio/Widgets/w02.jpg
Here is the 15pr400 along with TD15m. The 15pr seems to respond more to the box it is put in and does not need the same overall size to get down as low. Ill post sims of my box tonight when i get home.
http://cdn.avsforum.com/8/8f/8fc5386d_vbattach215283.jpeg
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You're welcome!
It depends on the 515 model/year; my mid '50s 515Bs have a ~20 Hz Fs, 0.2 Qts, 20 ft^3 Vas. Of more importance than a super low Fs is having a super high Vas [hard to come by these days] and the large cab it dictates, especially if used with higher XO points.
This allows excellent tonal balance and PRaT [pace, rhythm and timing] even down at tiny fractions of a watt where an HE system normally 'works' at and when it 'feels' a 25-30 dB transient, there's less delay plus it better matches up to a compression horn's highly damped, heart attack fast transient response.
GM
If the 515B needs a horn like the VOT and so need a subbass under say 80 hz, why not the GPA 515-8LF maid for vented ? An Onken then the CD?
Great Plains Audio - 4U music : bottom of the page for the spec
I never compare side to side for mid-bass & mid an Onken vs a VOT : say for 80 hz to 1000 for a valid check if a CD is used ?
VOT is said to have better transcient and SQ... but assume most of the time it's impossible to check with ears as the horns above for CD are never the same for each of both designs (Onken & VOT).
Had anyone an experience with both ?
Great Plains Audio - 4U music : bottom of the page for the spec
I never compare side to side for mid-bass & mid an Onken vs a VOT : say for 80 hz to 1000 for a valid check if a CD is used ?
VOT is said to have better transcient and SQ... but assume most of the time it's impossible to check with ears as the horns above for CD are never the same for each of both designs (Onken & VOT).
Had anyone an experience with both ?
Need, no, though the model was initially designed principally as such, but also fine for specific BR, sealed, TL apps, be it BW and/or how much output impedance it’s coupled to.
I use duals in 20 ft^3 corner loaded pipe horns tuned to 16 Hz to get sufficient low end to tonally balance them once flattened up high near the 500 Hz XO point.
If driven with a ~matching impedance or one with variable DF bass, treble controls, then account for this increasing effective Qts in the cab’s design.
Some folks prefer to limit them to the mid-bass and use subs, but many have learned the hard way why that to keep up with a horn driver requires same-same performance, so basic reflex or max flat sealed is a no-no unless heavily damped to be semi-aperiodic.
The 515-8/LF is apparently a mix of the 515C & 515-8 LFE, so great for BR, but not so much for the A5, A7 series and definitely not the A2, etc. series.
There really is no comparison between the Onken and VOT, but with the latter, a ‘sub’ is ideally required in many apps. That or use duals as I did and preferably corner loaded.
For a single driver, I much prefer my more technically accurate MLTL or pipe horn alignments to the Onken’s ‘colorful’ vent pipe harmonics that comb filter with the driver’s output no matter how euphonic it sounds to many. Just a bit too ‘rich’ for me.
Having compared a 416C Onken to a 416C A7 using the same 511/802-8Gs, the horns don’t change the speaker’s character once each is dialed in, but no matter the SPL, there’s a distinct difference in performance/presentation, especially in a typical size room, though for most folks the Onken is the clear winner for HIFI apps same as Altec’s M-19 being widely considered the overall best consumer speaker Altec produced.
GM
I use duals in 20 ft^3 corner loaded pipe horns tuned to 16 Hz to get sufficient low end to tonally balance them once flattened up high near the 500 Hz XO point.
If driven with a ~matching impedance or one with variable DF bass, treble controls, then account for this increasing effective Qts in the cab’s design.
Some folks prefer to limit them to the mid-bass and use subs, but many have learned the hard way why that to keep up with a horn driver requires same-same performance, so basic reflex or max flat sealed is a no-no unless heavily damped to be semi-aperiodic.
The 515-8/LF is apparently a mix of the 515C & 515-8 LFE, so great for BR, but not so much for the A5, A7 series and definitely not the A2, etc. series.
There really is no comparison between the Onken and VOT, but with the latter, a ‘sub’ is ideally required in many apps. That or use duals as I did and preferably corner loaded.
For a single driver, I much prefer my more technically accurate MLTL or pipe horn alignments to the Onken’s ‘colorful’ vent pipe harmonics that comb filter with the driver’s output no matter how euphonic it sounds to many. Just a bit too ‘rich’ for me.
Having compared a 416C Onken to a 416C A7 using the same 511/802-8Gs, the horns don’t change the speaker’s character once each is dialed in, but no matter the SPL, there’s a distinct difference in performance/presentation, especially in a typical size room, though for most folks the Onken is the clear winner for HIFI apps same as Altec’s M-19 being widely considered the overall best consumer speaker Altec produced.
GM
How did I live in the PNW for ten years and I've never heard of these guys?
Yowza, what a find!
Hey Pano, what do you mean by 'true bass'? Is it a frequency cutoff thing or a lack/reduces strength of drive at lower frequencies?
Ok so the 15pr400 looks like the best choice. I can stuff it in a 100l cab and tune it to 44hz for pretty deep bass - 45hz at -3db according to WinISD
I'll purchase those as soon as I sell a load of aquarium stuff.
In the meantime can I ask several questions about cab shape & driver placement?
I have in mind to use the 8 cell horns I already have to start with. Nether can sit on top of the cabs in a bracket/holder. I also might purchase the JMLC-400 from Auto-Tec. My question is how does one go about mating them up, driver placement wise? If I place the 15fr400 offset so the horn (which is 48cm dia so might overlap a high & centrally placed driver) sits as close as possible, will that hobble the box for other drivers etc?
Is the driver best placed centrally or offset, both vertically & horizontally?
I'll purchase those as soon as I sell a load of aquarium stuff.
In the meantime can I ask several questions about cab shape & driver placement?
I have in mind to use the 8 cell horns I already have to start with. Nether can sit on top of the cabs in a bracket/holder. I also might purchase the JMLC-400 from Auto-Tec. My question is how does one go about mating them up, driver placement wise? If I place the 15fr400 offset so the horn (which is 48cm dia so might overlap a high & centrally placed driver) sits as close as possible, will that hobble the box for other drivers etc?
Is the driver best placed centrally or offset, both vertically & horizontally?
Cabinet shape options:
Is wide better than tall for things like baffle step and boundary reinforcement? Would offsetting the driver be of any use?
Material choices:
18mm BB ply straight build with offset holey brace
18mm far eastern ply (less plys and cheaper than BB) with some of this attached to the inner walls Rubber Stable Mats 6FT x 4FT - 10 MM THICK Equestrian Matting, Gym Mats | eBay it's made from random sized particles of rubber compressed together. If this is to dense then a neoprene foam might work also with offset holey brace.
18mm far eastern ply with B&W style matrix bracing
I also thought of ply then rubber then metal bar randomly bolted through to the ply braking the panels up into random smaller parts
The sand monster - the sand filled void, super heavy and dead. I know That Pano holds these in hi regards....
Not sure how the above applies to a driver doing 40-1000hz if there are other things to include or leave out because of this range
What say you?
Is wide better than tall for things like baffle step and boundary reinforcement? Would offsetting the driver be of any use?
Material choices:
18mm BB ply straight build with offset holey brace
18mm far eastern ply (less plys and cheaper than BB) with some of this attached to the inner walls Rubber Stable Mats 6FT x 4FT - 10 MM THICK Equestrian Matting, Gym Mats | eBay it's made from random sized particles of rubber compressed together. If this is to dense then a neoprene foam might work also with offset holey brace.
18mm far eastern ply with B&W style matrix bracing
I also thought of ply then rubber then metal bar randomly bolted through to the ply braking the panels up into random smaller parts
The sand monster - the sand filled void, super heavy and dead. I know That Pano holds these in hi regards....
Not sure how the above applies to a driver doing 40-1000hz if there are other things to include or leave out because of this range
What say you?
Yeah, but he didn't have to move them.
I wonder if a layer of your rubber matte between two layers of thin plywood would work well? Or even use OSB for the inside layer.
Moving them? That's what friends are for....
The matting is 1.04lb per Sqft at 10mm thick so pretty dense. Plus the random makup of the individual must trap some air in a zillion pockets
I like the idea of the OSB internal liner screwed thru the rubber and into the ply outer casing. Sounds pretty dense & dead. And I don't have to fart around with sand n the living room
If I threw in matrix bracing, would that be overkill?
The matting is 1.04lb per Sqft at 10mm thick so pretty dense. Plus the random makup of the individual must trap some air in a zillion pockets
I like the idea of the OSB internal liner screwed thru the rubber and into the ply outer casing. Sounds pretty dense & dead. And I don't have to fart around with sand n the living room
If I threw in matrix bracing, would that be overkill?
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