An attempt at treating a small room

[terry j]

hi shin

TBH I had the same thoughts about the internal corner, trouble is I thought it about the top one...and agree the bottom didn't come out too well.

Wondered what I would have done, it's too late now for them to be seperate sides (ie a clean internal line ), so thought maybe a small bit of quad running up that joint.

However, that would introduce a new bit of material that would look different (unless nice cedar or something), but what if you were able to nicely cover that bit of quad with some leftover material? Just stretch, glue and trim the quad with the material and then placeit in the internal corners.

Anyway, very cheap to do as an experiment (I assume there are bits of material laying around) and a two foot length of quad from the h/ware store.

Looking forward to the before/after measurements, should be very interesting. One day I will be renovating my litening room, so watching your thread closely. My room is not small tho, but still there will be many things to take from this.

BTW, re the ambiophonics, it was quite interesting and not tool bad at all. I gave it a very slapdash try but my first results were that I lost too much ambience. I did not do any optimizing or re-measuring for the new positions, just a real down and dirty try that really does not count as anything definitive.

I must also point out that what I love about my system IS the amazing ambience it gives, have not heard any other system come even close in that regard, so it was the ONE area that I would not compromise on. I have quite a few people (stereo heads) coming for a drunken debauched weekend in a couple of weeks, so rather than 'mucking up' my setup right now will put off any radical experimenting till after that.

I do need to give it a proper test.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Yes I think your right Terry. I've not long since finished trying to iron it in the hope that the glue would melt and let me to smooth it over but I realise now that it isn't the glue what the problem, its the depressions caused by the staples in the foam backing. Nothing I can do about it now other than take it off and find another method of fixing into the corner or hide it. I don't fancy taking it off since the fabric and foam will be pretty much wrecked in the process so that leaves a cover up job.

I like your suggestion of running some kind of beading wrapped in fabric down there. There's all sorts of varieties at my local timber merchant too. A simple quarter round, triangle or, as you suggest, square will work well and shouldn't look too out of place and will cover up the sin nicely. Building speakers is a piece of cake compared to this.

But if I could do it again I'd very lightly clamp the foam down in that corner with some 1.5mm alu sheet I have lying around and then attach the fabric. I think that would have avoided any issues.

 

[MJL21193]

But if I could do it again I'd very lightly clamp the foam down in that corner with some 1.5mm alu sheet I have lying around and then attach the fabric. I think that would have avoided any issues.

Good work Ant.
To attach the foam you could use spray on contact cement. No staples.

I watching this to get your impressions on the effectiveness. I have quite a bit more space at my disposal, but it's a tough room.

 

[terry j]

pity I didn't come across this before you put the treatment in, tho you may very well be aware of it (only just come across it, looks interesting)

http://www.acousticsciences.com/matt.htm

would have been good to see before and after measurements

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Terry,

I've gone back and trimmed the internal corners to hide the ripples in the fabric that I was getting. Looks better now and its quite subtle.

I've also just attempted to fit one of these:

http://www.vogels.com/pages/consume...classification=84&subclassification=31&id=572

Bloody thing doesn't fit the JVC HD1 at all, not even close. So much for a universal fitting. I can work something out though but its a PITA all the same.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Good work Ant.
To attach the foam you could use spray on contact cement. No staples.

I watching this to get your impressions on the effectiveness. I have quite a bit more space at my disposal, but it's a tough room.

Thanks John,

I've got some spray adhesive but was afraid it might not have the holding power to permanently pin the foam into the corner, at least not over time. I've seen it where fabric has been stretch round something, fixed with adhesive and then over time that fails. The trim in car ceilings is a good example. I wanted something permanent so glued and stapled.

Thanks to terry I've found a neat fix so am happy with that aspect now.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

pity I didn't come across this before you put the treatment in, tho you may very well be aware of it (only just come across it, looks interesting)

http://www.acousticsciences.com/matt.htm

would have been good to see before and after measurements

Yes that would have been interesting but it'd still be good to see how far from the ideal the room is.

 

[terry j]

Thanks to terry I've found a neat fix so am happy with that aspect now.

heh heh, now you can say you have a TT in your system...a Terry Trim

Yes that would have been interesting but it'd still be good to see how far from the ideal the room is.

Include it when you post your 'after' measurements, should be able to 'interpret' them well enough. If you had any gyprock, even maybe bits of mdf laying around I spose you could always temporarily 'cover' the treatment (ie put back the reflective surfaces) to get a little idea of how it used to be, tho honestly that prob wouldn't work as it would still be affecting the bass. And the test only goes to 700 hz or so.

I love the fabric, looks great. Would it not have been safer to finish the painting first?? Would hate to get some of that contrasting colour between the panels on the treatment.

EDIT duhh, what I thought was an incomplete paint job I now realise is just the edging for the contrasting fabric you are going to place between the traps.

lookin good.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Originally posted by terry j heh heh, now you can say you have a TT in your system...a Terry Trim

Include it when you post your 'after' measurements, should be able to 'interpret' them well enough. If you had any gyprock, even maybe bits of mdf laying around I spose you could always temporarily 'cover' the treatment (ie put back the reflective surfaces) to get a little idea of how it used to be, tho honestly that prob wouldn't work as it would still be affecting the bass. And the test only goes to 700 hz or so.

I'll do a bunch of measurements and post them back here regardless.

EDIT duhh, what I thought was an incomplete paint job I now realise is just the edging for the contrasting fabric you are going to place between the traps.

lookin good.

Yep that's right. There's still a 2" treatment to go between the two 3" ones. In the last couple of photo's you can see an off cut of the darker fabric that I'll be wrapping it in.

 

[terry j]

I don't want to continue making unnecessary posts in the thread, but it is of real interest to me.

It is the 'final frontier' so to speak, and one that I will be doing next in my own system. Hence the close tabs being kept on it. (And I thank the audio gods that I didn't ever fall into the usual audiophile trap of expensive new components to get the sound, thank heavens for real engineering solutions rather than advertising puffery and subjective audiophile hyperbole gotten from print or the net).

I have no reality on the truth or effectiveness of the matt test linked to earlier, but it makes sense to me when I read it y'know? Particularly things like the 'silences' within the test, allowing for the measure of decay and attack etc.

And I get the odd feeling that it is something you would not only be able to apply and use but also agree with as a tool.

(Hope it doesn't come across as getting you to do all the work) but have been pondering how we overcome the lack of a 'before' test. I'd hazard that as the diy'er you are you could have a set of quality standmounts or something laying around.

Even tho we cannot now do a before and after in the same room, 'we' can however put the (portable) system in an untreated room, do both a matt test and a subjective evaluation of it's sound (allowing I guess an ability to cross-correlate what we see on the graph with the aural result), then put it in the treated room and repeat.

Not as scientific as we'd like (changing more than one parameter at once) but nonetheless allowing any changes in the graph to be interpreted sonically.

I have a completely different set of problems when it comes to treating my room, for a start at 9m*5m (with a 2m deep large bay window added to that)*5m high ceilings it could not be described as small, but the real trouble starts when I consider the aesthetics of it all, as our place is heritage listed and quite ornately decorated, ruling out tri-corner treatment and wall/ceiling junction treatment.

No doubt at some stage I will post photos in the frankenspeaker build thread...but keep up the good work here and excuse my petty diversions please.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I was thinking of ripping the treatments down and getting some of these:

Shun Mook Spatial Control kit

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

I have no words to add that the picture doesn't already articulate a thousand times over.

EDIT: Looks like they double as an attractive door stop. Or maybe that's their primary purpose.

 

[john blackburn]

I was thinking of ripping the treatments down and getting some of these

You've been using a lot of the spray glue then?

John

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Originally posted by terry j It is the 'final frontier' so to speak, and one that I will be doing next in my own system. Hence the close tabs being kept on it. (And I thank the audio gods that I didn't ever fall into the usual audiophile trap of expensive new components to get the sound, thank heavens for real engineering solutions rather than advertising puffery and subjective audiophile hyperbole gotten from print or the net).

A suitable room is something I've become more and more aware of the deeper I've got into this and even with the changes I'm making here, I still think that will be something that happens in the future. Nevertheless this will be a good stab at making the best of bad situation though.

I've attempted treatments once before and I went about that the wrong way by covering the walls with 1" and 2" cheap foam which I now realise is laughed upon by anyone who knows the real issues. It didn't last long before I took it all down. It wasn't a worthwhile difference and looked awful too.

Even tho we cannot now do a before and after in the same room, 'we' can however put the (portable) system in an untreated room, do both a matt test and a subjective evaluation of it's sound (allowing I guess an ability to cross-correlate what we see on the graph with the aural result), then put it in the treated room and repeat.

There's a pair of standmounts in the lounge that would be suited to this. I'm not sure it would be even worth comparing the results to the LGT, let alone in a treated room, since the standmounts are at a vast disadvantage. Curiosity has got the better of me though so once I begin testing I'll try to get a measurement here with the MATT tones as well as with the LGT.

I have a completely different set of problems when it comes to treating my room, for a start at 9m*5m (with a 2m deep large bay window added to that)*5m high ceilings it could not be described as small, but the real trouble starts when I consider the aesthetics of it all, as our place is heritage listed and quite ornately decorated, ruling out tri-corner treatment and wall/ceiling junction treatment.

Ouch, that's certainly a big room. I've done all the labour and its small room here but its still going to hit me in the pocket. The good news is that the larger rooms generally need less treatment, proportionally speaking, compared to a small one.

There's also more room to experiment when treating larger spaces. With small ones you generally place lots of absorption which are a universal fix for virtually every room related acoustic problem - all kinds of echo, bass resonance, reflections, decay time, combing etc. But can run the risk of removing too much of the room which is an unpleasant experience.

No doubt at some stage I will post photos in the frankenspeaker build thread...but keep up the good work here and excuse my petty diversions please. [/B]

Terry please no talk like this. You have much I'd like to hear and all audio is fascinating. I've never been one to claim a thread just because I started it and more often that not, the golden nuggets of info within any useful thread aren't strictly related to the original topic. We'd be pretty bored just posting pictures of a room build and not discussing other things.

 

[BERENO]

But can run the risk of removing too much of the room which is an unpleasant experience.

I understand the basic problems of a room, but I think I am missing something when you say that removing too much of the room is a bad thing... can you elaborate a little? just curious

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I understand the basic problems of a room, but I think I am missing something when you say that removing too much of the room is a bad thing... can you elaborate a little? just curious

Last year I met a chap who works at JM Focal. He recalled a visit to their anechoic chamber in France and described it as an uncomfortable place to just stand and talk in let alone listening to music. There's a total lack of ambient sound and speaking is unnatural since the brain never comes across that level of isolation in normal situations. Stereo playback does nothing to bridge the gap because its ineffective at creating a completely believable experience without a reverberant sound field.

Total absorption removes the reverberant sound field leaving only the direct sound. This is what I meant by an unpleasant experience. We like an envelope of room performance that's neither too 'dead' to become alien but neither too 'live' to hurt intelligibility.

 

[BERENO]

That is what I thought you were alluding to, but thanks for the clarification

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Got the projector mounted after cutting an adaptor from ply.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[auplater]

Ant..

Over the top as usual...looks great!
I especially like the Tesco bags.. reminded me of my 8 days in London in April..... since we ate there alot... exchange rate with US$ except when we were at a pub, that is

next time you're cutting foam, try using an electric knife... the kind used for the turkey here in the states for thanksgiving

You can get a really smoth cut and it slices like majic... with little effort so you can focus on accuracy :

I can't wait to see what you tackle next... where does all this audio stuff go anyway? I have a big house, 2 HT's, etc... and it's overflowing with stereo stuff... not to mention the garage..


John L.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Hey John,

London is a great overrated dump isn't it. No that's not very patriotic of me, our capital is wonderful.

As for the kit, I build or buy my fair share but only keep enough to run one system. Whenever something new comes along the old gets sold, scavenged for parts or given away.

I really have no idea what to do next. I was thinking about surrounds but the baby Genelec 8020 made that project very hard to justify. I'll have to look to others for idea's and inspiration.

 

[Salas]

Set up a TT! Make a valve RIAA! Listen to vinyl cracking through a RAAL!