Music can be enjoyed on any playback system, I'm thinking back to the 60's and listening to pirate radio on the AM band with frequency cutoff well below 10K.
With the advancement in digital recording, playback and storage, plus very acceptable sounding inexpensive chip/d-amps, the only major outlay being the speakers.
With HDTV, computer gaming, movies and internet, there must be fewer suckers in the market for high end audio?
Only the older folks are "suckers" for such, the younger ones nearly all ignore this nonsense - all music can be enjoyed, on any sort of system, if not too much ugliness is injected by the gear trying "too hard" ...
The shame of it is, is that absolutely wonderful playback of recordings is possible if enough hoops are jumped through - the latter being the reason that it's very rarely heard.
The shame of it is, is that absolutely wonderful playback of recordings is possible if enough hoops are jumped through - the latter being the reason that it's very rarely heard.
But the good thing is that really good playback (as opposed to absolutely wonderful) takes almost no effort at all these days, allowing people to focus on the music rather than the gear, if they are so inclined.
Male humans in particular have varying audio sensitivities and imaginations.
Some believe they get 30 Hz from a cheap Chinese 3 inch speaker and others that 'upgrading' a cap in a d-amp board is a worthwhile modification.
On other forums there are those into UFOs and conspiracy theories.
It's all good fun.
I often wonder if phase modulation caused by the non-linearity of semiconductor junction capacitances in amplifiers has the ability to impact upon subjective performance and musical enjoyment.
Given that in most designs the dominant pole is formed by a miller capacitor that is usually quite linear and not a semiconductor junction.
And if it did, how would you test its impact? Since careful analysis of the amplifier schematic and semiconductor operating points would be required and each design would be different. What test levels would be used?
It would be minusculely small in most situations. However, so are a lot of other distortions which are detectable where most would expect them to be swamped by the orders of magnitude higher levels of distortion generated by the loudspeakers.
Given that in most designs the dominant pole is formed by a miller capacitor that is usually quite linear and not a semiconductor junction.
And if it did, how would you test its impact? Since careful analysis of the amplifier schematic and semiconductor operating points would be required and each design would be different. What test levels would be used?
It would be minusculely small in most situations. However, so are a lot of other distortions which are detectable where most would expect them to be swamped by the orders of magnitude higher levels of distortion generated by the loudspeakers.
"phase modulation" causes IMD products easily measured in the usual IMD tests - it adds vectorially with "AM" IMD products - since its in quadrature it doesn't cancel - the combined level is always shown in the normal IMD #s
there is no reason to think "FM" IMD has any more explanatory power re audibility than "AM" IMD - psychoacoustic researches love nothing more than "anomalous" auditory sensitivities to illuminate, test audio perceptual theories so it should be trumpeted once found, demonstrated in replicable DBT listening trials
and dynamic drivers have several "phase modulation" mechanisms themselves - so you do need to additionally show any hypothesized audible amplifier distortion really is different in psychoacoustic significant terms from what speaker already do
there is no reason to think "FM" IMD has any more explanatory power re audibility than "AM" IMD - psychoacoustic researches love nothing more than "anomalous" auditory sensitivities to illuminate, test audio perceptual theories so it should be trumpeted once found, demonstrated in replicable DBT listening trials
and dynamic drivers have several "phase modulation" mechanisms themselves - so you do need to additionally show any hypothesized audible amplifier distortion really is different in psychoacoustic significant terms from what speaker already do
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When drum go boom speaker should go boom.
Anything else is distortion or IEDs or bad capacitors. Or user error, specifically not having the volume control loud enough, or too loud.
The only thing we cannot control is everything on the other end of a CD. I once heard the most beautiful copy of NIN in Concert.. on the most unlikeliest of places, a Youtube video. It would be what I would describe as accurate and true to the performance. Not a reproduction at all. It fooled me.
We have almost perfected our side its now up to the artists to improve their side.
Anything else is distortion or IEDs or bad capacitors. Or user error, specifically not having the volume control loud enough, or too loud.
The only thing we cannot control is everything on the other end of a CD. I once heard the most beautiful copy of NIN in Concert.. on the most unlikeliest of places, a Youtube video. It would be what I would describe as accurate and true to the performance. Not a reproduction at all. It fooled me.
We have almost perfected our side its now up to the artists to improve their side.
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Off topic posts deleted by Moderation. Please stick at least somewhat loosely to the topic being discussed. Thanks..Here are some thoughts from someone (not me) who used to test amplifiers at NRC Canada.
The bottom line would be how the amp compared to any number of expensive and low-cost alternatives.
The way to do this would be to pick up an A/B switchbox. Radio Shack used to offer a multi-input line-level switcher for adding additional components to a simple audio rig, and something like that could be adapted for use in a dual-amp face off. (An ABX comparator would be better, but it costs a lot more than a simple line-level switch box.) One of the amps being compared, of course, would have to have level controls so that the levels could be precisely matched before doing the comparing. I suggest using random pink or white noise as a source for doing this level matching.
I did this kind of comparing both with the Radio Shack device and also with a comparator that Tom loaned to me. I did a lot of comparing and in ALL of those faceoffs but one I simply NEVER could hear differences between a variety of power amplifiers, integrated amplifiers, and the amp sections of receivers. (The one time I did hear a difference happened just before a "used and very cheap" amp being evaluated started to visibly smoke.) This series of comparisons included both rather expensive and powerful amps and some rather cheap ones like the AudioSource Amp-One I had on hand for comparing work. The AudioSource amp always worked like a charm.
Yes, super amps MIGHT have some advantages, especially if one likes accurate meters. Most have way more power than cheaper versions (although the Crown XLS units I got from Parts Express were relatively cheap at $300 each and they had 350 wpc into 4 ohms and over 500 into 2 ohms), and some (not all, by any means) are built to last longer than budget types. However, in terms of audible advantages, the super-duper and overkill components used to build some of the things mean not much at all. They might last longer (100 years instead of just 20), but in terms of practical and audible performance they are just amps. Amps is amps, as they say.
I am not saying that it makes sense to go cheap when it comes to amps (although that is what I have done), but, beyond the power required if the speakers are very inefficient and the listening room is huge, if one is expecting better soundstaging, more realistic depth, more detail, etc. when upgrading to a super amp from a more mundane version they are wrong.
Bottom line, go test amplifiers using ABX switch and equalize volume using Pink noise before starting the test. Keep the change over time less than one second. If you don't hear the difference don't buy the amplifier.
The bottom line would be how the amp compared to any number of expensive and low-cost alternatives.
The way to do this would be to pick up an A/B switchbox. Radio Shack used to offer a multi-input line-level switcher for adding additional components to a simple audio rig, and something like that could be adapted for use in a dual-amp face off. (An ABX comparator would be better, but it costs a lot more than a simple line-level switch box.) One of the amps being compared, of course, would have to have level controls so that the levels could be precisely matched before doing the comparing. I suggest using random pink or white noise as a source for doing this level matching.
I did this kind of comparing both with the Radio Shack device and also with a comparator that Tom loaned to me. I did a lot of comparing and in ALL of those faceoffs but one I simply NEVER could hear differences between a variety of power amplifiers, integrated amplifiers, and the amp sections of receivers. (The one time I did hear a difference happened just before a "used and very cheap" amp being evaluated started to visibly smoke.) This series of comparisons included both rather expensive and powerful amps and some rather cheap ones like the AudioSource Amp-One I had on hand for comparing work. The AudioSource amp always worked like a charm.
Yes, super amps MIGHT have some advantages, especially if one likes accurate meters. Most have way more power than cheaper versions (although the Crown XLS units I got from Parts Express were relatively cheap at $300 each and they had 350 wpc into 4 ohms and over 500 into 2 ohms), and some (not all, by any means) are built to last longer than budget types. However, in terms of audible advantages, the super-duper and overkill components used to build some of the things mean not much at all. They might last longer (100 years instead of just 20), but in terms of practical and audible performance they are just amps. Amps is amps, as they say.
I am not saying that it makes sense to go cheap when it comes to amps (although that is what I have done), but, beyond the power required if the speakers are very inefficient and the listening room is huge, if one is expecting better soundstaging, more realistic depth, more detail, etc. when upgrading to a super amp from a more mundane version they are wrong.
Bottom line, go test amplifiers using ABX switch and equalize volume using Pink noise before starting the test. Keep the change over time less than one second. If you don't hear the difference don't buy the amplifier.
I think the usual audiophile response is "your speakers (or cables, or ears) aren't resolving enough, and anyway, the whole blind listening methodology is deeply flawed".
Isn't FMD mostly the result of backwave propogation? I've heard this issue discussed about speakers but I suppose a bounce in an electrical signal would do the same thing. I can see how using GNFB would elevate the probability of this distortion and how terminating the signal would reduce it. Is the nature of this distortion mostly manifested in noise or does it have a harmonic or time deflection character? Merry Christmas all!
And they post a link to Robert Harley's article.I think the usual audiophile response is "your speakers (or cables, or ears) aren't resolving enough, and anyway, the whole blind listening methodology is deeply flawed".
One channel , maybe ... by itself. Most of the forums 100-200W DIY amps have the Yamaha's TOTAL power supply for one amp !!
The forum store's "Badger amp" with a 500VA trafo/ 40Kuf would put the yamaha
to utter shame. This for @ 500USD - parasound/krell for 1-4K$.
OS
OEM vs DIY ....
I'm the owner of 2 E-waste receivers (found them) ... HK680 (700$ -90W) - stellar
reviews and a cheapo pioneer sx-430 (35W).
Both are discrete BJT standard stereo amps , the harmon is better (EF3).
The difference- now that I have a DIY one , is mainly the power supply. Where
the H/K or pioneer sounds compressed , the larger trafo/caps of the DIY
DRAMATICALLY enhance the "believability" of reproduction.
For casual listening , DIY/OEM have slight differences. Low volumes with
some sources can "call up" 100's of watts for a short time. But you would be
straining to hear any distinction between amps in this scenario.
Loud home theater / concert levels - you are basically listening to the power supply
.... "throttled" by whatever sufficient (or insufficient) output stage is there.
Here is where the "anal" (over-designed) DIY steal's the show - less ripple (1V)
versus 5-10V with a heavily loaded OEM. Better (noticeably) sound is ensured.
PS - I use a larger power supply for my junk "test amp" than the yamaha uses
for ALL it's channels. They (OEM's) just want $$$ , not better sound.
OS
I'm the owner of 2 E-waste receivers (found them) ... HK680 (700$ -90W) - stellar
reviews and a cheapo pioneer sx-430 (35W).
Both are discrete BJT standard stereo amps , the harmon is better (EF3).
The difference- now that I have a DIY one , is mainly the power supply. Where
the H/K or pioneer sounds compressed , the larger trafo/caps of the DIY
DRAMATICALLY enhance the "believability" of reproduction.
For casual listening , DIY/OEM have slight differences. Low volumes with
some sources can "call up" 100's of watts for a short time. But you would be
straining to hear any distinction between amps in this scenario.
Loud home theater / concert levels - you are basically listening to the power supply
.... "throttled" by whatever sufficient (or insufficient) output stage is there.
Here is where the "anal" (over-designed) DIY steal's the show - less ripple (1V)
versus 5-10V with a heavily loaded OEM. Better (noticeably) sound is ensured.
PS - I use a larger power supply for my junk "test amp" than the yamaha uses
for ALL it's channels. They (OEM's) just want $$$ , not better sound.
OS
Very much so ... close to the very first thing I do if listening to a unknown system is wind up the volume to decent levels - immediately, and usually, I know that I'm listening to a crippled power supply, so I can't expect much from the setup - I'm driving a car with cartwheel suspension, so don't expect it to be able to go around corners at a reasonable speed, .
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