Wavebourn said:
I'm sure one can do worse and OTOH amps in Guitar Center are definitely not what John would call "high end". Are you aware what is the impact of that hodge-podge wiring on the amp/sound?
Man, I miss a definition of what "high end" is. Currently, the best I have is "whatever audio gear that sells for an indecent price".
I am the guy who started this thread. And I learned one thing. If the opening thread lacks focus and direction so will the responses. I mean it is all over the place.
I am honored that Mr. Curl even took the time to respond.
ken Stevens of Cat fame told me the same thing Curl said that 90% of his brilliant new ideas on paper never improved the sound at all but actually made it worse. This is one of the reasons why his products get better with ever iteration because he knows when not to implement his brilliant idea and can seperate his ego from the result.
I am not a subjectivist. I became a DIyer to escape the subjectivism of the audiophile world, as most of us have.
So I am trying to learn theory and objectivism to designs but am using my listening skills to make the ultimate decision.
Here is what I have found based on listening:
1. House wiring, power cords all make a differnece but what is really important here is low impedance. That means low gauge solid core wire. To me cloth covered solid core wire sounds best.
2. It is important to continue to use solid core wire to the switches, fuse holder, on off switch all the way to the transformer primary. The transformer sounds better with a lower impedance source.
3.mr sr gSo
orm the ipldo gergenerally odyCurls' gesom
I am honored that Mr. Curl even took the time to respond.
ken Stevens of Cat fame told me the same thing Curl said that 90% of his brilliant new ideas on paper never improved the sound at all but actually made it worse. This is one of the reasons why his products get better with ever iteration because he knows when not to implement his brilliant idea and can seperate his ego from the result.
I am not a subjectivist. I became a DIyer to escape the subjectivism of the audiophile world, as most of us have.
So I am trying to learn theory and objectivism to designs but am using my listening skills to make the ultimate decision.
Here is what I have found based on listening:
1. House wiring, power cords all make a differnece but what is really important here is low impedance. That means low gauge solid core wire. To me cloth covered solid core wire sounds best.
2. It is important to continue to use solid core wire to the switches, fuse holder, on off switch all the way to the transformer primary. The transformer sounds better with a lower impedance source.
3.mr sr gSo
orm the ipldo gergenerally odyCurls' gesom
Sorry I meant to continue:
3. The transformer should be a narrow bandwith large isolation transformer to keep out the noise. If the transformer is larger it will ring less into the short circuit presented by the resvuoir capaictors. BOth the diode swithcing noise and the transformer rining noise are high order offensive noise. All switching distortion must be minimized in the diodes and the transistors. That is why tube lovers will always have an advantge. No high order switching noise.
4. I have tried shotjy's as rectifiers and they sound bad. I don't care if they are polite and don't spit. I found the large IRC hexfreds (now vishay) sound the best. I have listened to the sound of the rectifiers and guess what. The larger 30 amp rectifiers have a lower noise spectrum than the cheap little ones.
5. I have tried snubbing the Hexfreds. In a high voltage tube power supply preamp circuit you could hear the snubber cap. Must be the highest quality teflon or you are better off with none.
6. I believe in very large bypass caps on the large resivoir caps in a transistor power supply. I put a 4uf infininty polypropr cap across each of the four large can caps. The improvment in the lower midbass was extrordinary. All the small ones do is add artifical zip.
7. As a impracitcal as this sounds, multiple solid core wire from the output transistors to the binding posts. All stranded wire in high current applications should be banned.
8. I have a gut level feeling that parts like resistors sound better in hgih current circuits when they operate warm and not hot. They are more linear warm than cold.
That is all I have for now.
The tranonly meaningful filtering of th
3. The transformer should be a narrow bandwith large isolation transformer to keep out the noise. If the transformer is larger it will ring less into the short circuit presented by the resvuoir capaictors. BOth the diode swithcing noise and the transformer rining noise are high order offensive noise. All switching distortion must be minimized in the diodes and the transistors. That is why tube lovers will always have an advantge. No high order switching noise.
4. I have tried shotjy's as rectifiers and they sound bad. I don't care if they are polite and don't spit. I found the large IRC hexfreds (now vishay) sound the best. I have listened to the sound of the rectifiers and guess what. The larger 30 amp rectifiers have a lower noise spectrum than the cheap little ones.
5. I have tried snubbing the Hexfreds. In a high voltage tube power supply preamp circuit you could hear the snubber cap. Must be the highest quality teflon or you are better off with none.
6. I believe in very large bypass caps on the large resivoir caps in a transistor power supply. I put a 4uf infininty polypropr cap across each of the four large can caps. The improvment in the lower midbass was extrordinary. All the small ones do is add artifical zip.
7. As a impracitcal as this sounds, multiple solid core wire from the output transistors to the binding posts. All stranded wire in high current applications should be banned.
8. I have a gut level feeling that parts like resistors sound better in hgih current circuits when they operate warm and not hot. They are more linear warm than cold.
That is all I have for now.
The tranonly meaningful filtering of th
syn08 said:
Don't worry, this prototype was not made for sale, though there are lots of wire in each of 2 toroidal output transformers.
But hodge-podge wiring is absent, if you look better. I can show you real hodge-podge on your nice looking PCBs.
What is called high end on the paper and in forum discussions is not a high end in reality. Again, you may lough aloud, but prepare to eat your hat as soon as you hear and compare, like tubes with transformers eat opamps (including discrete built) on lunch easily.
Why Guitar Center for comparison? Because I design professional gear that is usually sold there.
Edit: you reminded me an old Russian saying, about "beware of showing of half-work to full-fools"
It was a totally ambigious statement. I apoligize.
I have been working on converting two (2) Luxman M-117 200 watt stereo amps into monoblocks.
I was proceeding my merry way making signficant improvement in the sound until I got stuck on the thermal compensation.
So I contacted Rod Elliot and Leach and they both helped me. What kind great designers there are out there.
I then threw my problems to the DIY website and got earnest help.
But the project languised on the living room floor of my family home for over 6 months while my children and pets trudged through it.
And the project site very much resermbes your photo.
But you have taken it to a whole new level.
So I send the photo to my wife and maybe now she will understand
that I am not the only person this insane.
Thanks for saving my marrige.
I have been working on converting two (2) Luxman M-117 200 watt stereo amps into monoblocks.
I was proceeding my merry way making signficant improvement in the sound until I got stuck on the thermal compensation.
So I contacted Rod Elliot and Leach and they both helped me. What kind great designers there are out there.
I then threw my problems to the DIY website and got earnest help.
But the project languised on the living room floor of my family home for over 6 months while my children and pets trudged through it.
And the project site very much resermbes your photo.
But you have taken it to a whole new level.
So I send the photo to my wife and maybe now she will understand
that I am not the only person this insane.
Thanks for saving my marrige.
Instead of showing her my picture better bring her on an excursion in any design laboratory.
However, it is very hard to organize because of security regulations they usually have, but view of breadboards surrounded by dead and alive parts would definitely amaze her.
...after finishing some theme in our laboratory of semiconductor devices everything left on tables were swept to trash cans, and I know that janitors used to sell them on a flea market.
However, it is very hard to organize because of security regulations they usually have, but view of breadboards surrounded by dead and alive parts would definitely amaze her.
...after finishing some theme in our laboratory of semiconductor devices everything left on tables were swept to trash cans, and I know that janitors used to sell them on a flea market.
fglabach said:
You opened a good topic, and have skilled people around
Your own two posts are so far from amp design as can be, sorry
Most of what you say is so subjective that your escape seem to have have failed a bit, and you are bothered with it still
I agree with your wiev on using solid core though
I find it pretty important too
But with regards to the rest I have my doubts
With such tricks we are mostly just compensating other problems
When finding such we sometimes think we have found something important, but mostly it shows to work only in that specific case
Do the same somewhere else with amother amp, and its probably not quite so at all
Sorry if it was a bit rude
1. I dont know why a curcuit works, so I judge it by the looks
If it looks appealing, I tend to believe it sounds good too
Hell, I know it doesnt work like that
But often it does really seem to be like that, what else
2. I prefer small amps, and so far with heavy duty power supply
But have to give a smaller power supply a try some day
Better sound than good commercial stuff is to me only achieved by a single output pair
3. I also completely avoid emitter resistor and LR output
Those I find only ok with bigger woofer amps
Also avoid any kind of coupling film caps, unless its really needed
4. I also keep layout simple and wires as short as possible
I leave the complicated stuff to the more skilled builders
5. I do know that cheap components work perfectly well, but cant get myself to use other than good quality, though I never use exotic components, as I dont blieve in it
6. I like big heatsinks
Helps survival in heavy loads
I rate exstreme stability to be 1. priority
I begin to have serious doubts about wideband amps
Bias stability is important, as is low stable DC on output
I probably forgot something, and may even have missed the point completely, but it does seem to work with my limited knowledge and skills
Article is nice reading, and I do like the positive thinking about enthusiastic highend gear designers
But I must say thats to me it appears a bit naive thinking
The totally dominant factor of earning serious money to continue such process seem completely forgotten
A designer may very well have the best of intentions from start, but unavoidable ends with spending most of his time dealing with money problems
I expect noone will doubt that its first and most about making serious money
Actually I know of one very famous and highly respected highend designer who happened to be a 100% swindler
Its insider knowledge, so he is still regarded as a highly skilled higend designer
Surely not many of his kind, but also not the only one
Why should it be different from the rest of the world
But I must say thats to me it appears a bit naive thinking
The totally dominant factor of earning serious money to continue such process seem completely forgotten
A designer may very well have the best of intentions from start, but unavoidable ends with spending most of his time dealing with money problems
I expect noone will doubt that its first and most about making serious money
Actually I know of one very famous and highly respected highend designer who happened to be a 100% swindler
Its insider knowledge, so he is still regarded as a highly skilled higend designer
Surely not many of his kind, but also not the only one
Why should it be different from the rest of the world
It is possible that someone, without any scruples, can start and successfully make a hi end audio company. For some, promotion is everything, and sometimes it works. However, it is an insult to presume that the majority of designers are corrupt. Naive maybe, but not corrupt.
Audio, in general, is a love, not an optimum avocation to make a lot of money.
Yet, mid fi, while measuring OK, is not satisfying, like good hi end. Any ideas why? Of course, those of you cynics out there think that it is all our imagination. Well, I don't necessarily trust myself, when I make something, I trust the opinion of others, with a MINIMUM of interaction with them. I also need to know if I am on the right track. I can't waste my time, AND MONEY, fooling myself. I would have been out of the audio game, long ago, if there wasn't an optimum path to audio quality.
Audio, in general, is a love, not an optimum avocation to make a lot of money.
Yet, mid fi, while measuring OK, is not satisfying, like good hi end. Any ideas why? Of course, those of you cynics out there think that it is all our imagination. Well, I don't necessarily trust myself, when I make something, I trust the opinion of others, with a MINIMUM of interaction with them. I also need to know if I am on the right track. I can't waste my time, AND MONEY, fooling myself. I would have been out of the audio game, long ago, if there wasn't an optimum path to audio quality.
john curl said:
No money in a cure? Seems like it could be easy to engineer yourself out of a lot of cash making low cost yet high quality products. You might lose a lot of fluff money if your customers see that you carry a product that is comparable to the much more expensive "no compromise" line you also carry.
As much as I fear the placebo effect and what I call "suggestive listening" I actually trust peoples impressions on a lot of controversial topics - cables etc... I just am always second guessing causation of the problems.
My hunch is similar to tintus' "When finding such (improvements) we sometimes think we have found something important, but mostly it shows to work only in that specific case
Do the same somewhere else with another amp, and its probably not quite so at all"
To me a goal of "greater" or "improved" is trying to hit a moving target. At some point you need to ask why. What conditions are you really trying to satisfy/remedy?
I think the problem is a lack of standards. A lack of consistancy from system to system and the criteria these systems should be judged on. There is also no calibration standard from playback system to playback system. This is a glaring problem in the visual field and they have tried to tackle it with icc color profiling and calibration.
I think the goal with a playback system should be to come as close as what the engineer heard when mixing or mastering the recording. But when you have people in the studio world and in the audiophile world becoming more and more elusive and restrictive with the playback standards accuracy gets thrown out of the window.
I make plenty of inexpensive audio products. Parasound has a large range that, if not claimed by me, are similar to what I design. Try them sometime, and if you are happy, then that is all you need. Sort of what we call the '2 buck Chuck' in wine. Some are completely happy with it, others barely tolerate the stuff. Audio is much the same.
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