nickmckinney said:
Now thats an ancient chinese secret
We work with few different cone companies actually, some do some things better than others.
Hi! Nick, is that you? Are you doing well?
Welcome back!!!!!
I lost all of your e-mails since hard disk crashed, but I'm glad to see you are back to the speaker world again.
Could you kindly drop me an e-mail(just push the button below)? I want to show you something interesting...
Setting the T/S parameters for Lambda 10" Midbass
Vote early.....Vote often
I posted T/S parameters in this thread which would make the new Lambda 10" midbass 95db efficient and very well suited for a dipole midrange which could cover the 80-1,500 Hz human voice range. A Qts ~ 0.5 was selected with a Mms of ~25 grams. The new Seas Exotic 8" with underhung motor has a Qts of 0.44 and 10 grams Mms, so great minds do think alike. Full Range speakers have a strong following, which I believe it due to crossover free vocals, and I think this "single driver voice" philosophy is the best challenge for new speaker technology.
WinISD Graph shows some comparison data between current TD10M and the proposed T/S parameters for 10" Midbass. Hope this helps generate some discussion and possible agreement.
Green = TD10M ported
Yellow = TD10M sealed
Red-ish = 10" Midbass ported
Orange = 10" Midbass sealed
Vote early.....Vote often
I posted T/S parameters in this thread which would make the new Lambda 10" midbass 95db efficient and very well suited for a dipole midrange which could cover the 80-1,500 Hz human voice range. A Qts ~ 0.5 was selected with a Mms of ~25 grams. The new Seas Exotic 8" with underhung motor has a Qts of 0.44 and 10 grams Mms, so great minds do think alike. Full Range speakers have a strong following, which I believe it due to crossover free vocals, and I think this "single driver voice" philosophy is the best challenge for new speaker technology.
WinISD Graph shows some comparison data between current TD10M and the proposed T/S parameters for 10" Midbass. Hope this helps generate some discussion and possible agreement.
Green = TD10M ported
Yellow = TD10M sealed
Red-ish = 10" Midbass ported
Orange = 10" Midbass sealed
Attachments
John and Nick
now that you mention you have 6.5 and 8" drivers in the pipeline I would like to say an 8" that betters the one used in the AUDIONOTE AN-E (which now uses hemp cones and silver wire coils on their highest model) would be a great product.
Audionote sells the AN-E as 98 dB efficient, but that's in room and near corners. If you guys could come up with a decent sensitivity driver following your design principles and optimized for a SNELL E type alignment, smooth rolloff, and wide bandwidth (the Audionote AN-E is crossed over @ 3K) you would have in my opinion a winner. A kit would not be very difficult to develop, would be modest in price, not too big or difficult to construct and certainly good enough even for the most discerning, as the AN-E's attest. I would be more than happy to help develop a kit and would salivate over an alnico of field coil version.
Look in this thread for Kuei's and sreten's comments http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-83338.html
now that you mention you have 6.5 and 8" drivers in the pipeline I would like to say an 8" that betters the one used in the AUDIONOTE AN-E (which now uses hemp cones and silver wire coils on their highest model) would be a great product.
Audionote sells the AN-E as 98 dB efficient, but that's in room and near corners. If you guys could come up with a decent sensitivity driver following your design principles and optimized for a SNELL E type alignment, smooth rolloff, and wide bandwidth (the Audionote AN-E is crossed over @ 3K) you would have in my opinion a winner. A kit would not be very difficult to develop, would be modest in price, not too big or difficult to construct and certainly good enough even for the most discerning, as the AN-E's attest. I would be more than happy to help develop a kit and would salivate over an alnico of field coil version.
Look in this thread for Kuei's and sreten's comments http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-83338.html
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tang Band W8-1722
A few different options: Audax PR17OMO (not sure if the re-production is still going), MaxSpeakers PR65Neo (underhung, good driver, but big 4-5k breakup), and the well controlled, good sounding Alpha 6A, are all solid options.
John_E_Janowitz said:
A few different options: Audax PR17OMO (not sure if the re-production is still going), MaxSpeakers PR65Neo (underhung, good driver, but big 4-5k breakup), and the well controlled, good sounding Alpha 6A, are all solid options.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tang Band W8-1722
We've looked at nearly everything imaginable, and they all have similar issues. We just can't find anything that really makes sense to mate to the TD drivers. We have flat, smooth response on the TD15M out to 4KHz. To use a 6.5" driver with it needs to at least equal what you get from the 15".
The Audax has quite high inductance, .73mH, Xmax of only .5mm, and quite the resonance at 1200hz as seen in the impedance curve. It also has the breakup at 3KHz and up from there. Nothing done to linearize inductance or lower distortion.
The 18sound 6ND410 has a horrible breakup due to the dustcap, inductance is still high. Again, no attempts at linear incutance, lowering distortion, etc.
The MAX Fidelity PR65 you mention does't have an impedance curve shown, but as you mention has the huge rising response starting up at 2KHz and peaking almost 10dB at 4500hz. This is with a heavily smoothed curve so I'd hate to see what it looks like unsmoothed.
B&C's, Beyma's, the PHL's, Alpha6, etc, just none of them really have what we're looking for. In covering up to 3KHz in a system I want extremely smooth to at least 6KHz and then a smooth rolloff above that. Linear inductance is a must as well as decreasing non-linear distortion. Good heatsinking and low power compression are also critical. So is relatively high Xmax for the range covered. We're looking at 3mm one way with very flat BL linearity. We have some good solutions already in the works.
John
badman said:
We've looked at nearly everything imaginable, and they all have similar issues. We just can't find anything that really makes sense to mate to the TD drivers. We have flat, smooth response on the TD15M out to 4KHz. To use a 6.5" driver with it needs to at least equal what you get from the 15".
The Audax has quite high inductance, .73mH, Xmax of only .5mm, and quite the resonance at 1200hz as seen in the impedance curve. It also has the breakup at 3KHz and up from there. Nothing done to linearize inductance or lower distortion.
The 18sound 6ND410 has a horrible breakup due to the dustcap, inductance is still high. Again, no attempts at linear incutance, lowering distortion, etc.
The MAX Fidelity PR65 you mention does't have an impedance curve shown, but as you mention has the huge rising response starting up at 2KHz and peaking almost 10dB at 4500hz. This is with a heavily smoothed curve so I'd hate to see what it looks like unsmoothed.
B&C's, Beyma's, the PHL's, Alpha6, etc, just none of them really have what we're looking for. In covering up to 3KHz in a system I want extremely smooth to at least 6KHz and then a smooth rolloff above that. Linear inductance is a must as well as decreasing non-linear distortion. Good heatsinking and low power compression are also critical. So is relatively high Xmax for the range covered. We're looking at 3mm one way with very flat BL linearity. We have some good solutions already in the works.
John
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tang Band W8-1722
Sounds terrific! I would pay good euros for such a 6" driver. I'm currently using the Vifa 17 WN 225 : Link to data sheet
Reasonably behaved unit, but only 91-92 db sensitive.
Kris
John_E_Janowitz said:
Sounds terrific! I would pay good euros for such a 6" driver. I'm currently using the Vifa 17 WN 225 : Link to data sheet
Reasonably behaved unit, but only 91-92 db sensitive.
Kris
K&Q Sound Genesis Model 1 high efficiency planar
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1225420119
Lambda Acoustics may want to put the R&D into a similar dipole design and sell it on Audiogon to showcase its speakers, or loan it out to amplifier companies for trade show listening rooms. The new 10" midbass and TD15M could be compared with ears as well as T/S and distortion measurements.
So, is the 10" midbass Mms ~ 20 grams with Ganja cones? Woven Kevlar? Basic Black paper?
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1225420119
Lambda Acoustics may want to put the R&D into a similar dipole design and sell it on Audiogon to showcase its speakers, or loan it out to amplifier companies for trade show listening rooms. The new 10" midbass and TD15M could be compared with ears as well as T/S and distortion measurements.
So, is the 10" midbass Mms ~ 20 grams with Ganja cones? Woven Kevlar? Basic Black paper?
Attachments
LineSource said:
It's a secret and we can't tell you.
Actually we are experimenting with a couple different pulps. A standard paper pulp like used on the TD drivers which performs well. A much more traditional pulp, the likes of what was used in the old Western Electric 755's and drivers of that era which are still regarded for their great midbass. Then we are actually working on our own pulp. We are importing raw papyrus reed from a group of missionaries in Rwanda and turning it into a pulp here that our cone vendor can then use to formulate cones from. The latter will be much more down the road. We expect the traditional pulp will be the most ideal for the midbass and be very appealing to those with love for the old vintage altec sound.John
John_E_Janowitz said:
Fair Trade speaker cones - congrats guys I love it!! Lets see more ethical input to our efforts!
John and Nick, if you guys can come up with a no-compromise 5" or 6" mid good from say 300Hz to 4KHz and eff to match your TD15M then I think you're on to a winner.
Bring on the alnico stuff, I need a nice mid to partner my TAD TL1601A
regards,
Len.
Note to Len Scanlon
Len:
The mate to your TAD 1601 should be the TAD 1201, but it does not go as high as you are searching for. It is a 12". I'm playing with a pair right now, that started out being for a different project.
Unbelievable sound. 100 db/1w/1m Pricey$$
I wonder how this speaker would perform open baffle? Magnetar once commented that it would only go down to 600 hz open baffle. I am looking at the Lambda woofers right now for an open baffle, and don't know what I want to do on the rest of it.
Sorry, just some rambling comments.
Homebuilder
Len:
The mate to your TAD 1601 should be the TAD 1201, but it does not go as high as you are searching for. It is a 12". I'm playing with a pair right now, that started out being for a different project.
Unbelievable sound. 100 db/1w/1m Pricey$$
I wonder how this speaker would perform open baffle? Magnetar once commented that it would only go down to 600 hz open baffle. I am looking at the Lambda woofers right now for an open baffle, and don't know what I want to do on the rest of it.
Sorry, just some rambling comments.
Homebuilder
len_scanlan said:
See, if you had a TD15M instead of the TAD woofer you wouldn't even need the midrange.
The idea of papyrus for the speaker cones actually came from a cone vendor we worked with. After I wanted to move forward they said "papyrus is no longer available in Egypt so we can't do this for you." So I started doing some research. There are millions of acres of it growing throughout Africa. I did some research and found it is prevalent in Rwanda. So I started checking around to see if our church supported any missionaries in Rwanda, which they didn't. I ended up finding an organization on the internet and they have a team stationed in Rwanda all year around. I made contact with them and they had a local person chop down and send some papyrus reed to us. We're working out the details, but the plan is to support them financially for building schools, putting in wells, building churches, providing teaching material, food etc for the people there. It's hopefully a way that we can do more than just buy speaker cones from someone, but actually be doing something to help people at the same time. We'll be sending money for them to gather the papyrus reed and also sending a portion of every driver sold back to them as well. Hopefully the papyrus cones will take off and we'll be able to make an impact in the lives of some people there. I have a few Christian rock bands very interested in promoting the guitar/bass guitar drivers that will use the papyrus so who knows where it could go.
The hard part was what to do with the papyrus once we got it. We found research from a German company pulping papyrus into traditional paper pulp. They document the various methods to do this and we'll be following their research. We will be developing a micro pulp mill essentially to pulp it in 25lb batches at our facility. Of course financial issues slow things down in any kind of process like this. If we had a good investor we could make it happen quite quickly. Of course we also need to make sure we're doing things in the proper way with the department of trade and agriculture and all the technicalities to importing the material.
John
John_E_Janowitz said:
See, if you had a TD15M instead of the TAD woofer you wouldn't even need the midrange.
The idea of papyrus for the speaker cones actually came from a cone vendor we worked with. After I wanted to move forward they said "papyrus is no longer available in Egypt so we can't do this for you." So I started doing some research. There are millions of acres of it growing throughout Africa. I did some research and found it is prevalent in Rwanda. So I started checking around to see if our church supported any missionaries in Rwanda, which they didn't. I ended up finding an organization on the internet and they have a team stationed in Rwanda all year around. I made contact with them and they had a local person chop down and send some papyrus reed to us. We're working out the details, but the plan is to support them financially for building schools, putting in wells, building churches, providing teaching material, food etc for the people there. It's hopefully a way that we can do more than just buy speaker cones from someone, but actually be doing something to help people at the same time. We'll be sending money for them to gather the papyrus reed and also sending a portion of every driver sold back to them as well. Hopefully the papyrus cones will take off and we'll be able to make an impact in the lives of some people there. I have a few Christian rock bands very interested in promoting the guitar/bass guitar drivers that will use the papyrus so who knows where it could go.
The hard part was what to do with the papyrus once we got it. We found research from a German company pulping papyrus into traditional paper pulp. They document the various methods to do this and we'll be following their research. We will be developing a micro pulp mill essentially to pulp it in 25lb batches at our facility. Of course financial issues slow things down in any kind of process like this. If we had a good investor we could make it happen quite quickly. Of course we also need to make sure we're doing things in the proper way with the department of trade and agriculture and all the technicalities to importing the material.
John
That's the best innovation in the speaker industry i've heard of since I've been buying drivers. Hope it pans out.
Ethical concerns
Good luck guys. The ethics of business are a lack thereof, all too often. Glad to hear about people using their success to effect change in the world.
There are good guys and bad in this industry as in all others. I lump Amar Bose and Noel Lee in with the very worst (Noel moreso due to the more ridiculous history of litigation), and there are also very good examples of how to act within a business context in hifi. Your actions here are an excellent way to find yourself grouped in with our own Nelson Pass, Ray Kimber (who does a ton to support his local "Weber State" college music program) and some others.
Kudos to youdos! And beware those with poor ethics in *my* hobby.... you'll get your cumuppins!
Good luck guys. The ethics of business are a lack thereof, all too often. Glad to hear about people using their success to effect change in the world.
There are good guys and bad in this industry as in all others. I lump Amar Bose and Noel Lee in with the very worst (Noel moreso due to the more ridiculous history of litigation), and there are also very good examples of how to act within a business context in hifi. Your actions here are an excellent way to find yourself grouped in with our own Nelson Pass, Ray Kimber (who does a ton to support his local "Weber State" college music program) and some others.
Kudos to youdos! And beware those with poor ethics in *my* hobby.... you'll get your cumuppins!
I dont quite understand...
The ideal 6" mid fore their own woofers would be about 90db+ to suit their own 94db woofers
The 94db mid would maybe suit double 12" woofers
I have decided to use an 18" and 12" in a 1.5 arrangement...and crossed to 1.4" CD/waveguide at around 800hz....so no need fore a 94db 6.5"
The ideal 6" mid fore their own woofers would be about 90db+ to suit their own 94db woofers
The 94db mid would maybe suit double 12" woofers
I have decided to use an 18" and 12" in a 1.5 arrangement...and crossed to 1.4" CD/waveguide at around 800hz....so no need fore a 94db 6.5"
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