So, the 'best' measured performance then? For what system context... measurement systems and parameters?...
A challenge of objective measurement is that of verifying its external validity/relevance at a range of levels (i.e. population down to an individual). Of course, that involves a degree of subjectivity.
Then there are the other real-world challenges...Cheers
CLS said:
LOL
Yeah, try to get any group of people to agree on what defines best "objective performance."
Accuracy, detail, dynamics, imaging, soundstage, you are there vs. they are here, ability to transmit emotion, "musicality," etc, etc, etc???
Or maybe the last are not measureable, or objective so they don't matter in this discussion?
And they all keep changing as rcdaniel just stated, in system context, measurement, etc...
Back to more black & white like frequency response?
Where the system, (especially the room and placement) is what's being measured anyway, so it really doesn't make any sense to generalize....
Out of everything I've heard, front loaded horns easly have the best objective performance (sound) I've ever heard.
Many disqualify them from "absolute best" just because of size...
here we go...
what do you want to measure?
some, in fact many elements of sound are considered objective...
yes, good front loaded horns are easily better subjectively also. Much less subtle difference than e.g. different box types, enabling, etc.
Listening to a Austin with an integrated horn, then taking the front horn away, was described as "l thought the Austins sounded good, now it's like going to a transistor radio."
--But that's subjective
what do you want to measure?
some, in fact many elements of sound are considered objective...
yes, good front loaded horns are easily better subjectively also. Much less subtle difference than e.g. different box types, enabling, etc.
Listening to a Austin with an integrated horn, then taking the front horn away, was described as "l thought the Austins sounded good, now it's like going to a transistor radio."
--But that's subjective
Sigh. It was supposed to be a joke, but speaking generally, many (most) FLHs don't really have the cleanest of responses (just as BLHs don't) compared to, say, direct radiators or dipoles, which usually prove superior in those areas. Assuming that that is what is desired of course, which it often isn't. Measurement and anything related to technical performance as far as I'm concerned is purely objective. Everything else related to personal preference either in sound, response, or in what a person wishes to measure is subjective. YMMV as always of course.
Comparing front / back horns is usually unproductive anyway, as they're rarely designed for the same task. Personally, I don't think FLHs are 'better' than anything else; they're just different, with their own particular set of tradeoffs, which is why I avoid the term like the plague as meaningless. I generally prefer the aforementioned HE direct radiators or dipoles for example. To each their own poison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcRSwo9bGHQ
Comparing front / back horns is usually unproductive anyway, as they're rarely designed for the same task. Personally, I don't think FLHs are 'better' than anything else; they're just different, with their own particular set of tradeoffs, which is why I avoid the term like the plague as meaningless. I generally prefer the aforementioned HE direct radiators or dipoles for example. To each their own poison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcRSwo9bGHQJust carrying the joke to extremes, because I knew it would soon get to at least one example of how absurd finding "absolute objective best" could get, for everyone, everywhere, etc.
(certain exceptions to be made; see Geddes, et. al...).
Agreed, most FLHs I've heard don't have the cleanest responses, (as if that's THE criteria for "absolute best."
Is mode, mean, or median part of "absolute best?"
Or for one design?
Again, totally agree-- the term is all but meaningless...
Too hard to define.
(certain exceptions to be made; see Geddes, et. al...).
Agreed, most FLHs I've heard don't have the cleanest responses, (as if that's THE criteria for "absolute best."
Is mode, mean, or median part of "absolute best?"
Or for one design?
Again, totally agree-- the term is all but meaningless...
Too hard to define.
I watched the video Scott and it illustrates the point (in an unusual way LOL). Entering into DIY you do pick your poison. In many cases, if you are frugal about your choices you can choose several poisons and enjoy them all.
I might even consider a pair of old school Voigt pipes an excellent choice for the 206e... a pair of powered subwoofers and arguably that's the best possible way to enjoy them... too.
Godzilla
I might even consider a pair of old school Voigt pipes an excellent choice for the 206e... a pair of powered subwoofers and arguably that's the best possible way to enjoy them... too.
Godzilla
haha - I suggested RCA-:Fan's design as he also builds a lot of horns, it has simple 5-internal panel construction with two mild bevels - no wasted volume from reflectors -empirically derived after sims and a lotta work of 13 builds to sound something like a RCA theatre horn - plus Bill likes cello to evaluate (I like real Karlson on cello) I would have a pair built but not sure if blh with 206 can deliver the massive bass and upper bass dynamics I like (?????)
(replying to JLH) "There is a organ pipe like effect at 100-200Hz due to Karlson slot.
Make the bass sound like a large theater "W" horn, which was my target for this box.
Bill
PS I built 13 of them, ( listening tests alone) to get that midbass hit--you better like them!!"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(replying to JLH) "There is a organ pipe like effect at 100-200Hz due to Karlson slot.
Make the bass sound like a large theater "W" horn, which was my target for this box.
Bill
PS I built 13 of them, ( listening tests alone) to get that midbass hit--you better like them!!"
I KNEW my previous comment would rasie some arguments, but that's OK.
I'm not arguing (and don't know) which would be "the best". However the route and goal of the whole thing are not that complex, I think. I mean, how to define the "best" sort of thing...
To begin with (and sitck on) a single high efficiency low-Q fullrange driver, there're not many 'real' options, actually.
If this topic (question) was raised by a close friend of mine, my answer would never be an ordinary "box" (BR, for example). Simple, that would never be an "absolute best box", been there, done that, and dump that.
And then, what's next? To think out of the box, OB is excellent in regards of many ways (I myself also like it a lot), but it just can not provide enough bandwidth and SPL with a single fullranger (let alone a low-Q 8"er).
Inevitably, we come to BLH (all kinds of them, including Voigt pipe, BIB, BVR... ) to "rescue" the bass. And this leads us to many other problems -- placement, ripples, bumps and dips, gain vs bandwidth, compromises in the stuffings, unsmooth transition between baffle step loss to the boosted bass, and even "too much gain" (e.g., J-low)
When we give the best shot on the BLH and resolve all the 'problems' mentioned above (including choosing a 'best' set of tradeoffs), then, often, we'd get a bass that is so good, and too good compared to other area of the whole speaker (now the midrange might not be rich and full enough ... etc).
So what's next?
I think, "the absolute best" is the desination, and we are always in the journey towards it. The routes are probably winding. And we'll probably never get there. But at least we can try our best to get to the point where we can see.
I see a compound horn. What do you guys see?
I'm not arguing (and don't know) which would be "the best". However the route and goal of the whole thing are not that complex, I think. I mean, how to define the "best" sort of thing...
To begin with (and sitck on) a single high efficiency low-Q fullrange driver, there're not many 'real' options, actually.
If this topic (question) was raised by a close friend of mine, my answer would never be an ordinary "box" (BR, for example). Simple, that would never be an "absolute best box", been there, done that, and dump that.
And then, what's next? To think out of the box, OB is excellent in regards of many ways (I myself also like it a lot), but it just can not provide enough bandwidth and SPL with a single fullranger (let alone a low-Q 8"er).
Inevitably, we come to BLH (all kinds of them, including Voigt pipe, BIB, BVR... ) to "rescue" the bass. And this leads us to many other problems -- placement, ripples, bumps and dips, gain vs bandwidth, compromises in the stuffings, unsmooth transition between baffle step loss to the boosted bass, and even "too much gain" (e.g., J-low)
When we give the best shot on the BLH and resolve all the 'problems' mentioned above (including choosing a 'best' set of tradeoffs), then, often, we'd get a bass that is so good, and too good compared to other area of the whole speaker (now the midrange might not be rich and full enough ... etc).
So what's next?
I think, "the absolute best" is the desination, and we are always in the journey towards it. The routes are probably winding. And we'll probably never get there. But at least we can try our best to get to the point where we can see.
I see a compound horn. What do you guys see?
I'm getting worried now.
Given that I designed several of the horns under consideration, I won't recommend any of them over anything else, as it would hardly be dignified. About as far as I'm willing to go in that sense is noting that if the 206 is the driver in question, it's a big room, large cabinets, reasonable documentation & an easy build are demanded, then Sachkio should fit the bill well enough. Note I am not advocating it -just stating that it fits the requirements. You can find feedback / comments on it elsewhere.
Freddi's suggestion of the Karlson-slot based design would also be on my shortlist (BTW Freddi -what on Earth is that cabinet to the left of it in the picture?), as would the Nagaoka D58 or Fostex's own cabinet for the FE208ESigma (it's quite a good box & works better with the 206 than their own cabinet designed for the 206), or, simplest of the simple, a BIB, if you have corners available to load them.
Given that I designed several of the horns under consideration, I won't recommend any of them over anything else, as it would hardly be dignified. About as far as I'm willing to go in that sense is noting that if the 206 is the driver in question, it's a big room, large cabinets, reasonable documentation & an easy build are demanded, then Sachkio should fit the bill well enough. Note I am not advocating it -just stating that it fits the requirements. You can find feedback / comments on it elsewhere.
Freddi's suggestion of the Karlson-slot based design would also be on my shortlist (BTW Freddi -what on Earth is that cabinet to the left of it in the picture?), as would the Nagaoka D58 or Fostex's own cabinet for the FE208ESigma (it's quite a good box & works better with the 206 than their own cabinet designed for the 206), or, simplest of the simple, a BIB, if you have corners available to load them.
Well the discussion is somewhat intellectual now. I got a new saw blade and have cut about 80% of the pieces for Sachico.
The front loaded horn ideas are extremely appealing to me as well, and yes, hm, I spoke too soon if I implied that your designs aren't well documented and so forth.
I think, SAF and money allowing, my next project after this, besides a good low power tube amp, would be either a compound horn or a 2 way with a 3-4" front-horn loaded full range mated to a transmission line bass.
Does anybody know any good fl horn resources for a total beginner/projects that employ a full range driver in a single horn from 200-15000hz or so? I don't even know if a horn can deal with that bandwidth.
The front loaded horn ideas are extremely appealing to me as well, and yes, hm, I spoke too soon if I implied that your designs aren't well documented and so forth.
I think, SAF and money allowing, my next project after this, besides a good low power tube amp, would be either a compound horn or a 2 way with a 3-4" front-horn loaded full range mated to a transmission line bass.
Does anybody know any good fl horn resources for a total beginner/projects that employ a full range driver in a single horn from 200-15000hz or so? I don't even know if a horn can deal with that bandwidth.
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