I have been making speakers for a little while now. Recently I did the whole proac clone thing, and while I really like the results, these speakers don't really capture the magic I remember from my first project....full range fostex 206e!
The first cabinet I made for these was a small bass reflex as suggested by they fellow I bought the drivers from. No bass, no midbass, but dynamic in a way that I found completely thrilling.
Later, I tried MJK's transmission line project. These sounded fairly balanced, but I feel like the large amounts of stuffing and the BSC circuit really cut down on the liveliness of the speaker.
So here I am in a new place with a spouse who actually thinks it would be cool if we had speakers the size of industrial refrigerators. I have a big long room with decently high ceilings.
My question here is this: what is the ultimate box for this speaker?
The options as I see them:
These beautiful german double-horns
No measurements on them, of course, but the shape is delightful.
Moving along,
Onur's horns.
Or;
The frugal horn Bruce
These designs are BVRs, of course. Everything I have read about the 206e indicates that it would be happiest in a true BL-horn. (There is another one called the chang which is considerably easier to build - I am considering this as well.)
Finally, the ones I least want to build but most want to have, the Sachiko.
I have been reading up on the subject, and people seem to really like the Sachiko horn. It seems to mate well with the 206e.
Finally, my questions:
1. Are the 206e's really suitable for the BVRs?
2. Will the Sachiko require any BSC? If so, what will I need to do?
3. Are there any other options, specifically, is there anything that will top the Sachico?
I'm looking to recapture the sizzle and dynamics of the fullrange experience, and it seems that the Sachikos do this while adding an element of scale and drama.
Extra credit:
4. The 206es have some response issues I am familiar with - will phase plugs even most of this out, or will further electronic intervention be required in a BLH design such as sachiko?
The first cabinet I made for these was a small bass reflex as suggested by they fellow I bought the drivers from. No bass, no midbass, but dynamic in a way that I found completely thrilling.
Later, I tried MJK's transmission line project. These sounded fairly balanced, but I feel like the large amounts of stuffing and the BSC circuit really cut down on the liveliness of the speaker.
So here I am in a new place with a spouse who actually thinks it would be cool if we had speakers the size of industrial refrigerators. I have a big long room with decently high ceilings.
My question here is this: what is the ultimate box for this speaker?
The options as I see them:
These beautiful german double-horns
No measurements on them, of course, but the shape is delightful.
Moving along,
Onur's horns.
Or;
The frugal horn Bruce
These designs are BVRs, of course. Everything I have read about the 206e indicates that it would be happiest in a true BL-horn. (There is another one called the chang which is considerably easier to build - I am considering this as well.)
Finally, the ones I least want to build but most want to have, the Sachiko.
I have been reading up on the subject, and people seem to really like the Sachiko horn. It seems to mate well with the 206e.
Finally, my questions:
1. Are the 206e's really suitable for the BVRs?
2. Will the Sachiko require any BSC? If so, what will I need to do?
3. Are there any other options, specifically, is there anything that will top the Sachico?
I'm looking to recapture the sizzle and dynamics of the fullrange experience, and it seems that the Sachikos do this while adding an element of scale and drama.
Extra credit:
4. The 206es have some response issues I am familiar with - will phase plugs even most of this out, or will further electronic intervention be required in a BLH design such as sachiko?
n_martin said:
0/ Except for having lots of pieces, Saciko is probably the easies to build.
1/ 206 can be stretched into a BVR, but if you end up having to use series R, (in my experience) you'll give up some of the dynamics... eprobably better to start with 207.still something to be said about curvy bruce.
2/ It shouldn't. Horn gain should give all the compensation required. You actually have to be wary of getting them too close to the wall-- you might have to artificially roll of the bottom.
dave
Re: Re: Absolute best box for 206e? Sachico vs. Neviges vs. Bruce vs. Chang
What a waste!
I mean, we build the horn for the most gain available, don't we? If so, why not build a front horn for the mids? That brings us a compound horn.
Say, the topic is "absolute best", has anyone build a big compound horn like Opus1 or TP1 for any Fostex?
planet10 said:
What a waste!
I mean, we build the horn for the most gain available, don't we? If so, why not build a front horn for the mids? That brings us a compound horn.
Say, the topic is "absolute best", has anyone build a big compound horn like Opus1 or TP1 for any Fostex?
They're a high-gain catenoid back-horn designed to be used away from room boundaries. Get them too near a rear-wall & they'll overpower the mids & HF. I'm not sure why that's 'a waste.' (?)
RCA-Fan's conical back loaded horn should be good --- if you can take its looks - the build below would look better imo if top and bottom didn't overhang - Bill did 13 builds to get it to satisfaction - I like the look of Planet10's double mouth horns better
if interested - ask Bill Woods for plans at acoustichorn.com
if interested - ask Bill Woods for plans at acoustichorn.com
Well, regarding the wall issue, I'm going to be putting them somewhere in the middle of a 10'x40' space that goes into a hallway and a kitchen...I will probably have some room related issues but I think the bass should be under control.
I think that all things considered Sachiko is my best bet. I'm going to get the wood this weekend, hopefully.
I will update with pictures at some point in the future. Can't wait to have high efficiency speakers again.
I think that all things considered Sachiko is my best bet. I'm going to get the wood this weekend, hopefully.
I will update with pictures at some point in the future. Can't wait to have high efficiency speakers again.
That Curvy Bruce looks really great!
I have never heard any of these BVRs but they look really cool and probably sound amazing.
For the 206e, i would simply build a BIB, stick them into corners and enjoy. Finding the best box is not going to be easy. For me the BIB represents all the right compromises for a driver like the 206e... but again, i've never heard any BVRs.
Can someone build and send me a pair?
Please?
I have never heard any of these BVRs but they look really cool and probably sound amazing.
For the 206e, i would simply build a BIB, stick them into corners and enjoy. Finding the best box is not going to be easy. For me the BIB represents all the right compromises for a driver like the 206e... but again, i've never heard any BVRs.
Can someone build and send me a pair?
Please?
Scottmoose said:
Not an expert, but I think that the appeal of this design is in it's relative simplicity. These speakers are already 6x1x1.5, adding a front horn would bring SAF down pretty low.. What little I know about horn design tells me that the horn size/efficiency is dependant on both the entrance and exit diameter, and making a horn that begins at 8" would be impractical.
This brings up an interesting suggestion though, something I have been curious about for a while. It seems front horns are the way to go for really high efficiency. Does anybody know of any relatively well documented horn projects, or at least suggestions on how to design midbass-tweeter horns? Would the smaller fostex fullrangers suit such a design?
I'm no expert on horn building. I have only very limited real experiences.
However, the title of this topic is "Absolute best..... ". I thought, if this is the case, then other practical factors should be pushed down in the priorities.
Even we all agree to 'do our best', there're already so many dilemmas in engineering, let alone bringing in the 'practical considerations'.
However, the title of this topic is "Absolute best..... ". I thought, if this is the case, then other practical factors should be pushed down in the priorities.
Even we all agree to 'do our best', there're already so many dilemmas in engineering, let alone bringing in the 'practical considerations'.
from yet another "not an expert:"n_martin said:
agreed, the simplicity is the appeal of bvrs & blhs.
a) What's so impractical about a horn that begins @ 8"?
I'm building a pair now...
b) the throat size is usually less than the driver diameter.
c) yes, front horns have much higher efficiency, even without compression drivers.
d) midbass, or tweeters? big difference bewteen the two.
Many have used fostex full rangers, usually for mid range though, and add a tweeter, and mid bass.
Azura Horns are great, as are Oris, or roll your own.
e) as to the earlier question post/question about compound horns, TP-1 style, i built kludged together something of the sort as an experiment out of an Austin with a quickly removable 250Hz LeCleach front horn. Had a recent "listening party," and it was unanamous that the kludge was the best sounding piece of the day... BVRs, TLs, enabled, etc were present.
So yes, compound horns can work, but I still think they're pretty compromised compared to a well designed front horn system.
But if the goal if "absolute best" then "absolute best" what?
"Absolute best" for simplicity, or sound quality?
In what size room, what amp, etc...
To who's taste???
I'd be a bit worried about wood movement if laminating those backs out of cedar 2x2s as drawn; the plywood side might well not be able to constrain it and the glue joint could give way. I suppose if you made them out of all quarter-sawn pieces, or some highly stable wood (or both) you could get away with it; and it would certainly look pretty in quarter-sawn teak.
On the other hand, they'd be pretty gorgeous if you cold-molded them out of 3 layers of cedar strips...
Regards.
Aengus
[edit] edited for clarity, and to add the bit about using quarter-sawn.
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