well you jumped the gun anyway anyway, because nikola was ahead of you ;D he/she? is number 37, you are 38 which does not exist. this can have SE output, but you would have to add a BAL/SE stage after if you wanted top performance, whether it be transformers, opamp, or discrete.
but then you would have that problem anyway, as all the dacs of today are tuned for DIF output and unless you do proper SE conversion/summing after a DIF IV stage, you throw away a good portion of the DNR.
just saw opcs post whoops
couldnt be bothered editing
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Is it actually possible to run SE from the balanced outputs?
Either by connecting the negative to ground or leaving it disconnected and just using the Gnd and positive.
I've asked this in several places and never really got an answer. I wanted to try it with the IVY but was unsure of the risks.
Edit: Actually I just found this advice on the web:
'Of course, not ALL audio components support balanced lines. In many cases, it is necessary to connect a device with unbalanced outputs to a device with balanced inputs (or vice-versa). In such cases, it's best to refer to the manufacturer's instructions. However, there are several other solutions that you may want to consider. The simplest is as follows:
Connect Signal+ of the balanced signal to the "hot" pin of the unbalanced signal connector. Connect Signal- of the balanced signal to the "ground" pin of the unbalanced connector. Connect shield of the balanced signal to the "ground" pin of the unbalanced connector, or if hum is added by doing this, leave the shield unconnected at the unbalanced end.'
Either by connecting the negative to ground or leaving it disconnected and just using the Gnd and positive.
I've asked this in several places and never really got an answer. I wanted to try it with the IVY but was unsure of the risks.
Edit: Actually I just found this advice on the web:
'Of course, not ALL audio components support balanced lines. In many cases, it is necessary to connect a device with unbalanced outputs to a device with balanced inputs (or vice-versa). In such cases, it's best to refer to the manufacturer's instructions. However, there are several other solutions that you may want to consider. The simplest is as follows:
Connect Signal+ of the balanced signal to the "hot" pin of the unbalanced signal connector. Connect Signal- of the balanced signal to the "ground" pin of the unbalanced connector. Connect shield of the balanced signal to the "ground" pin of the unbalanced connector, or if hum is added by doing this, leave the shield unconnected at the unbalanced end.'
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yes of course you can, the concern is not really valid Spev, absolutely any IV stage after a balanced dac such as the sabre or really any modern dac will require a SE summing stage after the DIFF IV if you want to fold down all of the DNR. you can always just take the SE output by taking half the bal output, but performance suffers considerably. that has nothing to do with this design, it has to do with all the dacs being designed for balanced output for best results.
you will not find a single IV stage that does not have to do this. you can always do the above, but its not recommended. the IVY is the same, there is a separate SE stage, just happens to be on the same PCB.
you will not find a single IV stage that does not have to do this. you can always do the above, but its not recommended. the IVY is the same, there is a separate SE stage, just happens to be on the same PCB.
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RichLund:
I think way back in the first couple pages of this thread I posted some measurements with the output in SE mode as you've described.
As you have already discovered, it will indeed work, but performance will suffer somewhat. Distortion is still quite low however, so whether or not you'll actually hear it is debatable. Just the same, I would suggest using the circuit in differential mode unless you really have no other option.
A better solution for SE operation would be a few op-amps arranged as an instrumentation amplifier to do balance to SE conversion. If you went this route, you could actually drop the resistance values way down to reduce gain, and run lower rails and higher current, then get your voltage gain from the instrumentation amp. I personally love the LME49990 op-amps, and my headphone setup uses those as a balanced to SE converter driving an LME49600 buffer. Together with the DAC and I/V, the input to output THD+N is a pretty incredible -111db.
If you'd like, I could post a schematic.
Cheers,
Owen
I think way back in the first couple pages of this thread I posted some measurements with the output in SE mode as you've described.
As you have already discovered, it will indeed work, but performance will suffer somewhat. Distortion is still quite low however, so whether or not you'll actually hear it is debatable. Just the same, I would suggest using the circuit in differential mode unless you really have no other option.
A better solution for SE operation would be a few op-amps arranged as an instrumentation amplifier to do balance to SE conversion. If you went this route, you could actually drop the resistance values way down to reduce gain, and run lower rails and higher current, then get your voltage gain from the instrumentation amp. I personally love the LME49990 op-amps, and my headphone setup uses those as a balanced to SE converter driving an LME49600 buffer. Together with the DAC and I/V, the input to output THD+N is a pretty incredible -111db.
If you'd like, I could post a schematic.
Cheers,
Owen
Thanks qusp and Owen.
Owen, if you could post a schematic that would be great, something to think about. Sorry I scanned the thread looking for SE info but must have missed your post.
The above experiment was just to satisfy my curiosity. I understand that it really negates any benefits of the balanced design.
Owen, if you could post a schematic that would be great, something to think about. Sorry I scanned the thread looking for SE info but must have missed your post.
The above experiment was just to satisfy my curiosity. I understand that it really negates any benefits of the balanced design.
Spev and qusp:
As qusp mentioned, most DACs take advantage of the CMRR of a well designed balanced to SE stage at some point in the audio chain to lower the noise and distortion that occurs in the D/A conversion.
There are very few systems that are truly balanced right to the loudspeaker outputs (this requires true independent bridge operation), so for most people, the balanced to SE conversion takes place in the first stage of the amplifier. If you don't have that option (eg a tube amp with an SE input) then you're far better off building a proper balanced to SE conversion stage so you can reap the benefits of CMRR. Take a look at any DAC datasheet and you'll see a suggested circuit that consists of a balanced op-amp based I/V stage feeding a third single op-amp that handles diff to SE conversion.
Other DAC output stages are no different, they either provide balanced output, assuming you'll have the CMRR somewhere else, or they do it on board using a balance to SE circuit. I've just omitted that circuit which allows the end user to properly control how it is done.
I personally will be feeding a pair of F5 amplifiers in bridge mode, which basically moves the CMRR duties all the way back to the loudspeaker itself if everything is well matched.
Cheers,
Owen
As qusp mentioned, most DACs take advantage of the CMRR of a well designed balanced to SE stage at some point in the audio chain to lower the noise and distortion that occurs in the D/A conversion.
There are very few systems that are truly balanced right to the loudspeaker outputs (this requires true independent bridge operation), so for most people, the balanced to SE conversion takes place in the first stage of the amplifier. If you don't have that option (eg a tube amp with an SE input) then you're far better off building a proper balanced to SE conversion stage so you can reap the benefits of CMRR. Take a look at any DAC datasheet and you'll see a suggested circuit that consists of a balanced op-amp based I/V stage feeding a third single op-amp that handles diff to SE conversion.
Other DAC output stages are no different, they either provide balanced output, assuming you'll have the CMRR somewhere else, or they do it on board using a balance to SE circuit. I've just omitted that circuit which allows the end user to properly control how it is done.
I personally will be feeding a pair of F5 amplifiers in bridge mode, which basically moves the CMRR duties all the way back to the loudspeaker itself if everything is well matched.
Cheers,
Owen
no problem Rich, there really isnt such a thing as a single ended dac anymore, so the IV stage should always be balanced, then for those who will tolerate them, opamps are a great solution. could be done with a few transistors too, but for my taste opamps do a better job, even though it might seem a bit incongruous to this design.
balanced all the way to the headphones for me, which are recabled balanced, also balanced to XLR input of my active studio monitors. with everything having at least dual mono power supply
balanced all the way to the headphones for me, which are recabled balanced, also balanced to XLR input of my active studio monitors. with everything having at least dual mono power supply
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qusp:
I wanted to re-cable my Denon AH-2000 headphones, but I can't bring myself to chop off that beautiful cable. I went for SE output for the sake of compatibility, since I use my headphones in multiple applications. Congrats if you went differential all the way though... should be the best IMHO. The circuit below is my headphone amp, which could easily be adapted to work for balanced output by using a single LME49990 and a single LME49600 per phase per channel.
Cheers,
Owen
I wanted to re-cable my Denon AH-2000 headphones, but I can't bring myself to chop off that beautiful cable. I went for SE output for the sake of compatibility, since I use my headphones in multiple applications. Congrats if you went differential all the way though... should be the best IMHO. The circuit below is my headphone amp, which could easily be adapted to work for balanced output by using a single LME49990 and a single LME49600 per phase per channel.
Cheers,
Owen
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hehe, I guess you havent seen the inside of the denon cable. recabling headphones is one of the main things I do for my day job. if you can bare to be without them for a while and will cover postage, as appreciation for the work you have done for the community, i'll recable them with a balanced 6' cryoparts TWcu UPOCC 7N copper cable. on the house. 250 dollar value
now of course that would require a new front end for the headphone rig, but I think you've got that under control. you might look at EUVL's X'd circlotron jfet voltage follower. apparently it rocks with the denons
its just not right that with your rig you use the stock Denon cable the D7000 stock cable is quite good, but the D2000/5000 cable ermm...not so much..
and if you wonder about my work, i'll send you some pics, you can also check out a long and very positive feedback thread on headfi. shipping wont be cheap, but still cheaper than the cost of materials for someone who isnt an OEM
now of course that would require a new front end for the headphone rig, but I think you've got that under control. you might look at EUVL's X'd circlotron jfet voltage follower. apparently it rocks with the denons
its just not right that with your rig you use the stock Denon cable
the D7000 stock cable is quite good, but the D2000/5000 cable ermm...not so much..and if you wonder about my work, i'll send you some pics, you can also check out a long and very positive feedback thread on headfi. shipping wont be cheap, but still cheaper than the cost of materials for someone who isnt an OEM
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qusp
you mentioned
you might look at EUVL's X'd circlotron jfet voltage follower. apparently it rocks with the denons
Is there a thread, website, set of boards for this?
I have using modified DH-5000s set up as SE but could change them to differential with the right amp.
It would be nice to go Sabre to D1 to differential amps to Denons.
Thanks
Bob
you mentioned
you might look at EUVL's X'd circlotron jfet voltage follower. apparently it rocks with the denons
Is there a thread, website, set of boards for this?
I have using modified DH-5000s set up as SE but could change them to differential with the right amp.
It would be nice to go Sabre to D1 to differential amps to Denons.
Thanks
Bob
nope, no thread, no boards, no site, no official schematic. its one of those enigmatic designs by EUVL and secret mens business. must be pieced together from various posts he made on the subject . closest you'll get on here and a good starting point is the DAO, or GRollins New-tron. the F5 is actually not dissimilar and as you may know there is a version of the F5 that is used as a balanced headphone amp. the circlotron has been around since tubes and has seen many incarnations, but patrick's with the lovoltech jfets is the one i'm researching soon as I get a free moment and the devices i'll give it a burl on perf
I also have some modded denons balanced with custom tassie blackwoodies and a small amount of damping mods. the circuits i'm talking of, have no voltage gain and thats perfect for the sabre, as it already has quite enough voltage for headphones. would be interesting to try a circlotron with opamps too.
its not a complicated concept, but its a bit out of left field hyow it works, you get fully balanced push pull output from a design with all N channel devices
I also have some modded denons balanced with custom tassie blackwoodies and a small amount of damping mods. the circuits i'm talking of, have no voltage gain and thats perfect for the sabre, as it already has quite enough voltage for headphones. would be interesting to try a circlotron with opamps too.
its not a complicated concept, but its a bit out of left field hyow it works, you get fully balanced push pull output from a design with all N channel devices
thanks qusp
I saw the balanced F5 thread and will research the circlotron. I saw the article on the Pass site but have not gone beyond.
Given the discussion regarding balanced systems I decided I would put together a balanced Aleph pre. My first thought is to see if it can drive the Denons. i guess it is about experimentation
Best
Bob
I saw the balanced F5 thread and will research the circlotron. I saw the article on the Pass site but have not gone beyond.
Given the discussion regarding balanced systems I decided I would put together a balanced Aleph pre. My first thought is to see if it can drive the Denons. i guess it is about experimentation
Best
Bob
qusp
this may be over my head but is the starting point post 48 in the Some other source followers thread? Is there a good write- up on solid state circlotron. I am having a hard time putting my head around it. this does seem like the way to drive balanced headphones after iv conversion by the D1
Thanks
this may be over my head but is the starting point post 48 in the Some other source followers thread? Is there a good write- up on solid state circlotron. I am having a hard time putting my head around it. this does seem like the way to drive balanced headphones after iv conversion by the D1
Thanks
let me dig up my research, its bit all over the place. there is a pic of the finished build that EUVL made a PCB for himself, which included an LDR volume control. very neat little build as is typical from him, but he did not publish the schematic and feels that if you cannot figure it out with research by yourself, that you do not deserve to build it.... I may be putting words in patrick's mouth there, but I dont think he would disagree
a cryptic phrase for you, 'one hand washes the other'- Status
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