a big toy to play with....

[JAMES@BOYD.ORG]

Squib, your comments are rather near the mark!
I've spent far too much time and money on these already. The biggest delay is the barn conversion that the are built for - still no roof!

It always makes me smile when people notice the size and say 'wow- must be amazing bass'. I have learned not to tell them that the horns only go down to about 150hz at the moment and the 12ft long 6ft mouth upper-bass horns are yet to be built (and hung for the ceiling) Even then they will probably need some sub woofer...

something like this. . . with all due credit given to Jessie Dazzle over at the Good Sound Club

sorry for my rather ham-fisted use of google sketchup!

 

[angeloitacare]

I'm impressed that you have only connected everything yesterday and you consider today your first 'listening session'!

hi James

i just reported my first listening impressions. You are right. It will take time to fine tune the system, to tweak, see what sounds better , how, etc.... I certainly expect still major improovements. The first listening session however was very promising , i had a lot of fun BTW. Macondo who ???

Eva

i have heard the Magico Ultimo's , which use DEQX crossover and room correction. They sounded very good from 300hz up, but awful below. It might have to do with the owners preference, which does not like bass so much. His room was overdamped , too. I would love to try out the new DEQX device, who knows , in the future.....

Angelo

 

[Eva]

Note that DSP crossovers are just tools. There are millions of ways to use them (and most are wrong). Room correction is a very complex subject too, with basic speaker correction I have enough for the moment.

 

[angeloitacare]

Eva

could you tell what hornspeaker you have ?

James

have you tried other tweeters than the RAAL's with your system ?
i would be curious to try a Lowther based speaker, but without whizzer, in the midbass horn.
i always think Ribbons do not keep up with dinamics and dinamic contrast of horns...

 

[JAMES@BOYD.ORG]

the A55 is really a fabulous unit. Used full range, and with your head in a vice, its makes some amazingly agile and lifelike sounds on my 115hz horn. Everything about it is critical though. Amps, OPTs, backchamber tuning and stuffing. The lowest I really like to run it is about 200hp at 6db. you can develop some serious levels used like this. I've played with 12db crossover and a bit lower cutoff but the 250hz 1st order seems to be the optimum im my setup. Oneday I might cut off the whizzer, but I don't really hear any problem it causes.

As for tweeters, I've tried JBL 2405. and a BMS 4540nd on a 1300hz doughnut, which are really very good. But the big RAAL is quite exceptional. and without the foam pads has nicely restricted vertical dispersion, perfect for this application

BTW. Macondo who ???

just thought it would be polite to credit the person who chose the same drivers, flares and basic layout that you were inspired by. that's all!

cheers
jb

 

[angeloitacare]

hello James

thanks for your explanation.

My thank goes to Holger Fromme of Avantgarde Acoustic, which listening session at his home i will never forget. That experience made me dream of having such a system up until i realised it now. Many thanks also to John Hasquin, since his blog with pictures how to make MDF horns was of big help for me. Your mentioned guy unfortunately has diffamed me in a unacceptable way, and therefore, no thank and any credit i do attribute to him.

 

[Eva]

The tweeters are BMS 4552 Nd on 18-sound XT1086 horns. This is currently the only decent stuff.

The midranges are Eminence Delta 10 on rectangular fiberglass horns inspired from a PA model (not optimum, lacking a phase plug, 176cm^2 throath, 1200cm^2 mouth, 33cm length, hyp/exp). A phase plug is planned to improve horizontal coverage.

The bass is an old prototype of folded horn (320cm^2 throat, 3200cm^2 mouth, 140cm length, front loaded, mostly conical) quite far from optimum too. Low cutoff is too high and only the reflex rear chamber helps below 60Hz.

I have recently bought two B&C 15NW76 speakers and I have made a folded horn design for them with good efficiency and low cone excursion down to 40Hz in mind (even in 2pi space). The remaining part is building them

Crossover points are 1500Hz and 266Hz, both LR24 electrical and 6th order acoustical (through DCX2496). Amplifiers are (don't laugh) TDA7294 ICs on +/-40V rails (quite old too). SPL is quite acceptable down to 60Hz.

 

[Lynn Olson]

Congratulations, Angelo, on getting the big boy up and running!

Curious about the LeCleac'h midrange horn - what T ratio did you choose? John Hasquin's T=1.34 (or something like that), or LeCleac'h and Bjorn Kolbrek's preferred T=0.7 to T=0.8 range?

 

[angeloitacare]

hello Lynn

the midrange horn has

horn mouth diameter : 60cm
horn throat : 1,5" ( 38mm )
T = 0,8

 

[MaVo]

the midrange is the upper horn, right? those pics dont do their size justize then. they must be enormous!

 

[JAMES@BOYD.ORG]

total height 1968mm

 

[angeloitacare]

hello MaVo

the height is 180cm. Today i started to make some tweaks. I tried the 15" Beyma LX60 in the basshorn, replacing a 12" jbl 2206h. And it will remain in the basshorn. There is a clear improovement. Bass is even more tight and controlled. Also , soon i will try a cap with lower value for the midrange, since it is a little too much present.

Angelo

 

[J.R.Freeman]

This is a really cool project! I know very little about horns. Do you have to manipulate the phase at the exit of each horn? As they are not in-line with each other, I would imagine there would be a phase difference, right?

 

[lineup]

Re: Re: a big toy to play with....

Probably will not sound good.
At least if you expect the original event like.
This is the nature of things.
We do not often get what we hoped for.
Still we will try again .... and again .... and again.
Until

lineup:
That may actually be the most discouraging post I've ever seen on this forum

True, m0tion
.. if you mean posts at this forum - from ME, Lineup
But not at all discouraging
if compare to what some people (newbies or nor) get thrown at them and on them
when happily and with positive expectation posting a new idea in a new topic.

Sometimes I have told those negative spirits to stop and go away
But lately I have let the resposabilty for keeping a positive forum
to the moderators we have.
They can take action
against the most Serious BULLYING of NEWCOMERS some bad members are doing.
I do not see what they get out of doing this .. be bad and the bad will turn back onto your self

In a few cases we have to be negative, no matter if we like this or not.
I do not know if you have watched American Idol.
Wouldnt be good if all 3 tried to 'tell truth', like Simon.
But as there are 2 other posters, judges there will be a balance of those negatives.
And the OBJECT Under Test is not left 100 % Totally without hope .. if there is hope
=======================================


My post is not without HOPE.
Eventually we will get success .. if we do not get broken and beaten.
My post is kinda down to reality (several, like EVA, has expressed doubts about sound for current version).

The end of my message is close to poetic
.. even if is a bit of sad & realistic message:

We do not often get what we hoped for.
Still we will try again .... and again .... and again.
Until

Compare with Bob Marley poetry in song:

.
Persecution you must bear
Win or lose you’ve got to get your share
Got your mind set on a dream
You can get it, though harder them seem now

You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want
But you must try, try and try
Try and try, you’ll succeed at last

Rome was not built in a day
Opposition will come your way
But the hotter the battle you see
It's the sweeter the victory, now

You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want
You can get it if you really want
But you must try, try and try
Try and try, you’ll succeed at last

You can get it if you really want
.

 

[lineup]

nicht war?

nicht war? (GER)
eller hur? (SWE)
isn't this so? (ENG)

to use all my 3 languges I can understand and speak
at the level of makin' myself understood close to good to ordinary people

 

[bbaker6212]

Angelo where did you buy the drivers?

Angelo, I live in Cabo Frio, Brazil. I have found quality audio components are hard to come by in Brazil. Where did you buy the drivers? Any sources you can give for DIY components for speaker building and amplifier building is much appreciated. Nice work! obrigado! -Brad-

 

[angeloitacare]

Do you have to manipulate the phase at the exit of each horn? As they are not in-line with each other, I would imagine there would be a phase difference, right?

the diaphragms of each driver should be placed at the same distance from the ear, so the sound of all channels should arrive the same time . The vertical distance difference of the horn mouths and size is no problem.

http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89

Meanwhile, enjoy (or suffer) the lobing, the cancellations, the poor imaging and a performance highly dependent on room-acoustics and listening position. I know because I have been experimenting with all-horn systems like yours (but much uglier) for the last 7 years. I started with simple passive filters too...

There is a limit of success obtainable by fine tuning a system only by ear. That's why obtain measuring instruments will be my next step.
I am already getting very satisfying results, even if observe some flaws, and where improvement is possible. So next step i will high-pass the midbass horn, and make some adjustments at the two crossover points of the satellite. i do not agree that first order crossovers cannot do the job. BTW. i am not alone with this opinion.... see Bruce Edgar Horns, Avantgarde Trio, etc....

hello Brad

i buy vintage drivers at ebay, and new ones direct from the speaker manufacturers abroad. I have never had any problem to import used drivers, even if the brazilian legislation does not permit it.

 

[TomatoBangBang]

Re: snap!

I hope they sound good cause they have to be the ugliest speakers I've ever seen!

gosh i would like to see your speakers davis Gatti, i am sure that it is a box in MDF with black paint...

Angelo the craftmanship is SUPERB, the horns are gorgeous, and i like the overall design

Maybe the structure is a little bit 70's still it is okay

hello

i drive the basshorns and subwoofer active.
For the satellite, i use a Viva Solista SET amp with 22W per channel.

i will use :

suwoofer : Aura 1808 in a vented cab > 50hz
bass : JBL 2206H 50hz -150hz
midbass : Fane Studio 8M 150hz - 700hz
midrange : Vitavox S2 700hz - 10khz
tweeter : Coral H104 < 10khz

sub and bass is crossed 24db, the rest first order, 6db.

I don't see any tweeter on the pic (?)

looks like we are on the same path....

Well you just have in common to verticaly aligned the drivers; no ?

You use ruban tweeter and different horn shapes

What have you in common in fact ?

This will never work properly with 6db/oct crossovers. Forget about passive too, a DSP (or an active filter with several dozen op-amps) is required.

Consider that horns are already 4th order bandpass devices. They have inherent 12dB/oct lowpass and 12dB/oct higpass responses, and the LP characteristic usually has very high Q resulting in a large peak in gruup delay near the lower cutoff point. This peak has to be compensated with parametric EQ, otherwise it won't sum in any way with the neighbour horn. There are usually more peaks and dips in group delay that need compensation for proper summing.

The minimum practical acoustical crossover target for horns is something like Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/oct. I use to overlap a textbook LR24 crossover to the natural 12dB/oct responses, equalized and phase shifted to get a consistent LR36. This seems to produce good results without too much work.

This is unless you have designed the horns with matched inherent LP and HP cutoff characteristics, which seems almost impossible.

Assumptions

I mean i have heard a great horn speaker with 6dB/octave based on goto drivers

So my experience say you are wrong

As Angelo said many great horn speakers builder choose this path

 

[TomatoBangBang]

Your mentioned guy unfortunately has diffamed me in a unacceptable way, and therefore, no thank and any credit i do attribute to him.

Roomy the cat ?

This guy learnt just few years ago how to build horn speakers
Now he speaks as he has a complete comprehension about every audio domain possible

The guy has post everywhere the "vitavox S2 survivale guide" which contains BIG mistakes

He admits it, it was because his diaphragm was damaged (!!!) and he continue to insult people on his website where the censorship is in his hand

People should read the way he talks to serious (and way more advanced) speaker builder (as jeffrey jackson for example)

It is laughable

So angelo don't get angry because of him ; everybody already know that this guy is a mythomaniac

 

[angeloitacare]

I don't see any tweeter on the pic (?)

the tweeter is the Coral H104 with aluminium wave guide, located between the midbass , and midrange horn.

James

what i do, has much less in common with Macondo, than you might think.

- i do not use a 7 way configuration,
- no injection channel
- no ribbon tweeter
- no bass array

there is no exclusivity of Macondo of use of tractrix midbass horn

-i do not agree that slightly raw horn surface painting does give important improvement in sound
- i do not agree, that basshorns don't deliver great bass performance
- i do not agree, that S2 is all that far superior sounding compression driver
- i do not agree, that front horn multiway configuration is necessarly the best possible topology of horn speaker design.
- i do not agree, that integration is all that perfect, specially for near field listening
- i do not think that only first order crossovers deliver the best sound . Actually, active crossovering is a path which i very much might explore and try out.