The bass is probably the easiest range to provide criticism on from a video as it is less affected by the mess of late reflections that your brain filters away when listening in the room. The kick drum in that track is not boomy when it sounds right, it is quite tight. Sometimes the headphone presentation can be a bit weak and a speaker in a room can do it better. The decay times show why it is sounding boomy. The frequency response below 200Hz is getting lots of cancellations from SBIR as well as some peaks. The PIR suggests it should be rising quite a lot, the destructive interference is making it lumpy. You would have to be careful with treatment not to overdo the damping above 4K as that is already nearly low enough. You would get some improvement from changing the position to minimize SBIR and applying some EQ to get back a smoother rising response as frequency goes down but the decay is still going to be a problem without some form of treatment.Thanks a lot @fluid for the suggestions and feedback..
This is exactly the kind of feedback that I was looking for.. Negative feedback as constructive criticism has always helped me (and probably most others too)
I can't tell you anything about the higher frequencies as I couldn't stand listening to the video for long, and as I said, I doubt it would sound like that in person at all.
How hard would it be to make the bass cardioid? This looks like a perfect test case for whether the extra cost and effort is worth it.
Do you have a small woofer box you could turn backwards and stack the system on top of it?
You likely need side woofers to get cardioid 100-400 but a rear woofer will do up to 200 Hz.
Do you have a small woofer box you could turn backwards and stack the system on top of it?
You likely need side woofers to get cardioid 100-400 but a rear woofer will do up to 200 Hz.
@nc535: This one is just a makeshift bass module.. Till the Genelec W371 inspired cardioidish bass module using 2 x15inch woofers are ready.. My objective with this Satori woofer based system build was to experience how the horns would sound like.. And so far I am very happy about that part..
Hopefully in the next 2-3months the full system gets ready and I can experiment with it..
Thanks @miero for the suggestion. In fact the system is placed just like you mentioned at the moment. The 10 degrees off axis (tuned flat with the crossover) of both speakers cross each other right in front of my face at MLP. For this, the speakers are toed in about 30-40ish degrees..
Also, while listening live, the horns sound like you mentioned.. Very clean sounding upper mid range & treble.. More attention catching is the dynamics and ease with which the whole thing plays.. It just goes very loud from zero sound very easily without any strain even with the puny class D amp I have used.. This is one of the reasons why I am not able to concentrate on the issues and try to optimise the system further.. I often get lost in the music and forget to notice the issues..
My objective with this Satori woofer based system build was to experience how the horns would sound like.. And so far I am very happy about that part..Hopefully in the next 2-3months the full system gets ready and I can experiment with it..
Thanks @miero for the suggestion. In fact the system is placed just like you mentioned at the moment. The 10 degrees off axis (tuned flat with the crossover) of both speakers cross each other right in front of my face at MLP. For this, the speakers are toed in about 30-40ish degrees..
Also, while listening live, the horns sound like you mentioned.. Very clean sounding upper mid range & treble.. More attention catching is the dynamics and ease with which the whole thing plays.. It just goes very loud from zero sound very easily without any strain even with the puny class D amp I have used.. This is one of the reasons why I am not able to concentrate on the issues and try to optimise the system further..
I often get lost in the music and forget to notice the issues..
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Speaker response around MLP after a bit of room EQ.
I have not yet gone and done any all out room EQ through, keeping in mind that this is a temporary set up and due to lack of time.
But I have been listening to the system for short durations eatleast once in two days. With this EQ, it sounds even better than before and my overall opinion about the sound haven't changed. It is awesome..
I have not yet gone and done any all out room EQ through, keeping in mind that this is a temporary set up and due to lack of time.
But I have been listening to the system for short durations eatleast once in two days. With this EQ, it sounds even better than before and my overall opinion about the sound haven't changed. It is awesome..
Totally agree.I can imagine it actually sounds great live, but it's really hard to tell based on the video, to put it mildly
Really do not understand how anybody can think that will evaluate any system by listening it through YouTube. First, it is usually recorded by self phone in impropriate environment and position , so very low quality, and second, it has been listened (in the best case) through own system in own room with all flaws of same system and room included.
So, one is listening bad record on its own system.
@danibosn : You are preaching to my choir here
Regarding why I still keep recording these "useless videos" of system playing music, here are my reasons
1) These are for friends and family who stay far away and knows nothing about all these graphs I am posting or the techical complexities involved in naking such systems. They are happy in knowing that I do something else in life other than spend 12-15 hours per day on my job. Some of them cant even identify any differences in audio quality between my smaller speakers and the current bigger ones when I make them hear these systems at my place. For some of more serious audio people the videos are a motivation to visit my place and listen to the system in person.
2) I am creating data points for future. In future, I might be able to give these video data as input to deep neural networks that are trained to identify/separate out room related artefacts from the system's output. Or I might feed the data as input to neural networks that are developed for "perceptual audio quality metric identication of speaker performance in rooms". Who knows, the age of AI has only started And I for one feel that we have been stuck to our linear regression based thinking and audio quality metrics for too long
3) Adds more fun to the whole speaker building process
Regarding why I still keep recording these "useless videos" of system playing music, here are my reasons
1) These are for friends and family who stay far away and knows nothing about all these graphs I am posting or the techical complexities involved in naking such systems. They are happy in knowing that I do something else in life other than spend 12-15 hours per day on my job. Some of them cant even identify any differences in audio quality between my smaller speakers and the current bigger ones when I make them hear these systems at my place.
For some of more serious audio people the videos are a motivation to visit my place and listen to the system in person.2) I am creating data points for future. In future, I might be able to give these video data as input to deep neural networks that are trained to identify/separate out room related artefacts from the system's output. Or I might feed the data as input to neural networks that are developed for "perceptual audio quality metric identication of speaker performance in rooms". Who knows, the age of AI has only started
And I for one feel that we have been stuck to our linear regression based thinking and audio quality metrics for too long 3) Adds more fun to the whole speaker building process
I like the way you think @vineethkumar01
What may seem inconsequential now may turn out to be a game changer later.
Old idea: ~1915 Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem- the sample rate must be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to avoid aliasing <-> you can only recover up to half of sampling rate.
New idea - ~2004 You can recover more with less data - Stable signal recovery from incomplete and inaccurate measurements, Candes, Romberg, Tao 2005 aka compressed sensing
Application - MRI with shorter scanning times / CT scanners with lower radiation
Old practice (1970s to 2010)- Doctors can screen for breast cancer and bowel cancer, but not lung cancers (no reliable test)
New practice (2016)- detection of early lung cancer in selected population at high risk of lung cancer via low dose CT.
2021-22 Evidence confirmed and Approved by US and EU "there is a strong scientific basis for introducing lung screening for current and ex-smokers using the latest technologies, such as low-dose CT scanning"
2024... already available or coming to a country near you!
What may seem inconsequential now may turn out to be a game changer later.
Old idea: ~1915 Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem- the sample rate must be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to avoid aliasing <-> you can only recover up to half of sampling rate.
New idea - ~2004 You can recover more with less data - Stable signal recovery from incomplete and inaccurate measurements, Candes, Romberg, Tao 2005 aka compressed sensing
Application - MRI with shorter scanning times / CT scanners with lower radiation
Old practice (1970s to 2010)- Doctors can screen for breast cancer and bowel cancer, but not lung cancers (no reliable test)
New practice (2016)- detection of early lung cancer in selected population at high risk of lung cancer via low dose CT.
2021-22 Evidence confirmed and Approved by US and EU "there is a strong scientific basis for introducing lung screening for current and ex-smokers using the latest technologies, such as low-dose CT scanning"
2024... already available or coming to a country near you!
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Count me in. I'm looking forward to the twin 15" cardioid boxes. What's the status of those?
@WetFartz: All plans for the box making for those 15inch woofers are ready. I often even dream about them.. However, the construction process is yet to start.
The delay has been due to multiple reasons. Due to the summer vacation here, Sadik, who makes the boxes has out of town this month. Then income tax payment for the year just ate up all my salary and then some more during last month.. So I am on ultra low money spending mode this month.. Hopefully next month, we will get to actually making the boxes..
However, the construction process is yet to start. The delay has been due to multiple reasons. Due to the summer vacation here, Sadik, who makes the boxes has out of town this month. Then income tax payment for the year just ate up all my salary and then some more during last month..
So I am on ultra low money spending mode this month.. Hopefully next month, we will get to actually making the boxes..
Just to set the expectations right, here is a comparison of the beamwidths in the woofer range that we are hoping to compare with the 15inch speaker boxes.
Normalized polars based beamwidth of the current Satori dual woofer system
This is hoping that all the nearfield farfield merges and everything else associated has gone right.
Expected theoretical beamwidth of the cardioidish 15inch dual woofer system
This is hoping that I get everything right..
Comparing the above two plots, the major action is the 100-350Hz range, where there is relatively good attenuation for the 15inch woofer system beyond 120 degrees or so off axis..
I don't know how better it all will turn out to be but let's wait and see..
Normalized polars based beamwidth of the current Satori dual woofer system
This is hoping that all the nearfield farfield merges and everything else associated has gone right.
Expected theoretical beamwidth of the cardioidish 15inch dual woofer system
This is hoping that I get everything right..
Comparing the above two plots, the major action is the 100-350Hz range, where there is relatively good attenuation for the 15inch woofer system beyond 120 degrees or so off axis..
I don't know how better it all will turn out to be but let's wait and see..
I just remembered one thing.. I hear all kinds of negative comments about the Satori WO24P woofers on this forum and some other.. That it is only good for deep bass and nothing else etc.. I agree that running this woofer full range is horrendous.. That horrible breakup just gets in the ears and stays there..
But once that is next to killed using suitable EQ and low pass filtering and the passband suitably linearized/shaped, I find that it results in beautiful sound in the bass and in the lower midrange..
I use these drivers only in sealed boxes and have never tried out bass reflex on these.
Maybe I am not listening to these drivers on the right songs that highlight what is missing, maybe I haven't done a comparison between it and another good driver like a purifi or a scanspeak. Maybe I am inexperienced. Maybe I am even tone deaf.. But I don't find these drivers as offending as it is said quite often.. On the contrary, I find them quite good..
But once that is next to killed using suitable EQ and low pass filtering and the passband suitably linearized/shaped, I find that it results in beautiful sound in the bass and in the lower midrange..
I use these drivers only in sealed boxes and have never tried out bass reflex on these.
Maybe I am not listening to these drivers on the right songs that highlight what is missing, maybe I haven't done a comparison between it and another good driver like a purifi or a scanspeak. Maybe I am inexperienced. Maybe I am even tone deaf..
But I don't find these drivers as offending as it is said quite often.. On the contrary, I find them quite good.. 
Many people have gotten great sound out the WO24P. I have also been puzzled by the divergent opinions on this driver, some love it, some hate it. I suspect the poor performing applications are vented box systems which do not have optimal alignment. SBA/Satori are known to use a non-standard method to measure Thiele-Small parameters. Perhaps if a box is designed with the published TSP, it is sub-optimal, tuned wrong? This is my theory...
Sealed box is very forgiving to design and build, as you have found, and it offers tight crisp bass performance. But it does require a lot of Sd/Vd/Xmax, particularly if we apply bass EQ.
It will be so interesting to get your perspective comparing you new woofer system to this pair of 9" sealed woofers...
j.
Sealed box is very forgiving to design and build, as you have found, and it offers tight crisp bass performance. But it does require a lot of Sd/Vd/Xmax, particularly if we apply bass EQ.
It will be so interesting to get your perspective comparing you new woofer system to this pair of 9" sealed woofers...
j.
Thanks @hifijim
I really like these woofers now, crossed over less than 1kHz and especially after applying some heavy handed EQ to that break up region.
As you suggested, I too think that part of the problem with these woofers might be the vented alignment. The rest of it could be insufficient attenuation of break up especially when using assive crossovers. That break up peak is very hard to forget once we her it..
I am dying to her the new woofers as well and compare with current system.. hopefully I get a chance to do it soon in coming months..
I really like these woofers now, crossed over less than 1kHz and especially after applying some heavy handed EQ to that break up region.
As you suggested, I too think that part of the problem with these woofers might be the vented alignment. The rest of it could be insufficient attenuation of break up especially when using assive crossovers. That break up peak is very hard to forget once we her it..
I am dying to her the new woofers as well and compare with current system.. hopefully I get a chance to do it soon in coming months..