I have searched and like what I see in AE for the $$ but am lacking in what I need to buy. IB looks cool but I am uncertain as to how to build an enclosure for them. I believe that I would prefer two sealed, self-powered subs.
Basically, what would you buy with a $700 budget for two, all purpose subs? I am building a PJ based HT in my basement. Musical tone is more important than slam but 20hz would be nice. Room size is 20x18x20x18. I want to build a box to contain the screen, center channel behind the screen (acoustically transparent screen of course), and put the subs firing forward beneath the screen.
I would love a pre-made box if possible. The Dayton kits look ok but a bit lacking? I love the MFW-15 but I want two subs and they are a bit pricey after shipping costs.
Cheers!
Basically, what would you buy with a $700 budget for two, all purpose subs? I am building a PJ based HT in my basement. Musical tone is more important than slam but 20hz would be nice. Room size is 20x18x20x18. I want to build a box to contain the screen, center channel behind the screen (acoustically transparent screen of course), and put the subs firing forward beneath the screen.
I would love a pre-made box if possible. The Dayton kits look ok but a bit lacking? I love the MFW-15 but I want two subs and they are a bit pricey after shipping costs.
Cheers!
Oh I understand what IB is. I just have no idea how to build one properly in a front firing setup like my example. I was asking about sealed subs too.
Decor smecor. It is MY room lol. I would probably prefer the 2 x 15 IB with a Behringer 1500 but need plans for the box? Or is it just mount the damn things, seal the speakers rim to the box and leave the back open? If so, never mind, I can handle that easy enough.
Decor smecor. It is MY room lol. I would probably prefer the 2 x 15 IB with a Behringer 1500 but need plans for the box? Or is it just mount the damn things, seal the speakers rim to the box and leave the back open? If so, never mind, I can handle that easy enough.
the advantage of more sound sources (more separate subwoofers) is smoother inroom response. 2 actually won't fully achieve this, 4 is the magic number that the researchers at Harman came up, and 3 is the magic number that Dr. Geddes came up with.
I would very seriously consider multiple small subwoofers rather than 1 big one. Even if you want to make IB subs, which are fine, you still can and should have multiple sound sources in different parts of the room. Since the way they vent into the room can be nothing more than a air vent, they can be pretty easily hidden.
I would very seriously consider multiple small subwoofers rather than 1 big one. Even if you want to make IB subs, which are fine, you still can and should have multiple sound sources in different parts of the room. Since the way they vent into the room can be nothing more than a air vent, they can be pretty easily hidden.
So you are saying I should have at least 4 subs in various locations in the room? I could fit 2-4 IB in the back and 2-4 IB in the front easily. Or are you also talking about several sealed subs scattered about in order to make the "sweet spot" larger? I agree with the small subs btw. I think 12" is a perfect size for this room. 15" to 18" might well overpower/kill me lol.
I am closing on this house for the new build friday btw. I can get exact measurements and pics up then. There really is a good spot in the back and the front of the room for any speaker array. I would actually prefer a sealed solution just b/c we will sell the house in a few years as we move up the ladder of $$ hopefully lol. IB is still a possibility though.
no you can use the IB idea, that is fine. The type of subwoofer is really unimportant. If you are going to be cutting up your new house for this, you might want to start with three and see how that works. Just be sure to use non-symmetric positions (i.e. don't stick every one in the middle of the wall of each side). If you want to do 4, that is fine too, in that case, if you want to follow the Harman method, they did use symmetric layouts (middle of each wall, not corners), however Dr. Geddes, who has also conducted similar research to this, apparently found that non-symmetric placement with three subs could achieve similar results.
It has always amazed me when people put 1000's of dollars into a single large subwoofer instead of just building lots of smaller subs. In the end the results would be same, output wise, with a much smoother bass response.
I mean, I have one large ported sub, and at the moment, one smaller true sub, with a small "sub" which is really just a bass speaker. I'm in the process of redoing my whole system (Lightening was very unfriendly to my equipment), and will be going with a bitter different setup. As you might see in another post I brought up, I'm actually looking at the idea of building some bandpass subs. I've been talked with Dr. Geddes about purchasing one of his broad band designs, which would have quite a bit of output in the 50-150hz range (using a B&C 15" driver). Bandpass are notoriously hard to design, and so I've steered away from them, but I've decided to give them a shot for the enhanced efficiency and lower distortion.
Anyway, what has worked best for me, and shown to be true in scientific research, is that multiple sound sources scattered throughout the room give the smoothest response. I'm sure in the past you have noticed that the bass is different depending on where you walk in the room. On top of that, at any one listening position, room modes seek to destroy your nice smooth bass response. These multiple sound sources will smooth the bass response, not only thoughout the room, but also at each of the listening positions. Honestly, people see my setup and think all the equipment is either to show off or for huge amounts of output. Thats not the case at all, I don't watch movies all that loud, its all about a better overall response. I just feel that movie experience is enhanced when I'm not bothered by these issues, and the visceral effect is also enhanced, without having to listen at as loud of levels.
It has always amazed me when people put 1000's of dollars into a single large subwoofer instead of just building lots of smaller subs. In the end the results would be same, output wise, with a much smoother bass response.
I mean, I have one large ported sub, and at the moment, one smaller true sub, with a small "sub" which is really just a bass speaker. I'm in the process of redoing my whole system (Lightening was very unfriendly to my equipment), and will be going with a bitter different setup. As you might see in another post I brought up, I'm actually looking at the idea of building some bandpass subs. I've been talked with Dr. Geddes about purchasing one of his broad band designs, which would have quite a bit of output in the 50-150hz range (using a B&C 15" driver). Bandpass are notoriously hard to design, and so I've steered away from them, but I've decided to give them a shot for the enhanced efficiency and lower distortion.
Anyway, what has worked best for me, and shown to be true in scientific research, is that multiple sound sources scattered throughout the room give the smoothest response. I'm sure in the past you have noticed that the bass is different depending on where you walk in the room. On top of that, at any one listening position, room modes seek to destroy your nice smooth bass response. These multiple sound sources will smooth the bass response, not only thoughout the room, but also at each of the listening positions. Honestly, people see my setup and think all the equipment is either to show off or for huge amounts of output. Thats not the case at all, I don't watch movies all that loud, its all about a better overall response. I just feel that movie experience is enhanced when I'm not bothered by these issues, and the visceral effect is also enhanced, without having to listen at as loud of levels.
Hi,
The Harmon method does not optimise in room smoothness.
It optimises the response variability over an area which is then
digitally EQ'd to flat, this is a very different optimisation, it uses
symmetry exploitation and this is a smooth response killer.
Two sub boxes with 8ohm drivers with one box with
a 4ohm amplifier is an economic way to proceed.
Typical placement is ~ 1/3 along the back and a side wall.
This covers the two major modes, a third along the vertical axis
is possible but not very practical, two subs covers the basics.
Adding a third and sticking it a corner might be good for HT,
but I cannot see much advantage for proper music use.
/sreten.
The Harmon method does not optimise in room smoothness.
It optimises the response variability over an area which is then
digitally EQ'd to flat, this is a very different optimisation, it uses
symmetry exploitation and this is a smooth response killer.
Two sub boxes with 8ohm drivers with one box with
a 4ohm amplifier is an economic way to proceed.
Typical placement is ~ 1/3 along the back and a side wall.
This covers the two major modes, a third along the vertical axis
is possible but not very practical, two subs covers the basics.
Adding a third and sticking it a corner might be good for HT,
but I cannot see much advantage for proper music use.
/sreten.I wouldn't say they are the best. They have that technology advantage, and would allow among the lowest distortion and deepest bass in such a compact enclosure. However better results could be obtained using a different method. One might even argue that small enclosures could be designed to achieve better results, but none the less, its a good system for the money.
Sreten, I thought they said that it reduced the effects of room modes? Doesn't that imply smoothing the in room response? Am I confusing Dr. Geddes and the Harman work? None the less, the end suggestion from both pieces of research was more sources is better, so lets not confuse this poor guy.
From a manufacturing stand point, I understand how its more economic to run two 8ohm subs, one box, and one amp. But from a DIY standpoint, especially when people are building these 2-3000 dollar subs using multiple very high end drivers, I don't see it. I mean, How many subs have you seen on those home theater forums with 2-4 TC Sounds LMS-5400 subs in a single box, powered by a monster Crest or Crown pro amp. I see so many variations on that basic theme too, subs that cost between 800 and 1500 each for just the driver, used in multiples, in a single box. The box is the cheap part of this, so why not split it into 2 or 4 boxes instead, spread them around the room, and go from there. It's better, no?
Sreten, I thought they said that it reduced the effects of room modes? Doesn't that imply smoothing the in room response? Am I confusing Dr. Geddes and the Harman work? None the less, the end suggestion from both pieces of research was more sources is better, so lets not confuse this poor guy.
From a manufacturing stand point, I understand how its more economic to run two 8ohm subs, one box, and one amp. But from a DIY standpoint, especially when people are building these 2-3000 dollar subs using multiple very high end drivers, I don't see it. I mean, How many subs have you seen on those home theater forums with 2-4 TC Sounds LMS-5400 subs in a single box, powered by a monster Crest or Crown pro amp. I see so many variations on that basic theme too, subs that cost between 800 and 1500 each for just the driver, used in multiples, in a single box. The box is the cheap part of this, so why not split it into 2 or 4 boxes instead, spread them around the room, and go from there. It's better, no?
Or you could go to COSTCO and buy as many of their powered subs that will fit within $700 with tax and just scatter them around your listening room. Or stack a bunch of them in a corner. I bought a couple for $100 each for my daughters' apartment and they weren't half bad. I'm only half kidding about this. One of their subs by itself won't satisfy somebody who is a member of this forum, but in multiples you would get lower distortion, because each sub is working less the more of them you use.
I'm kinda a fan of sonotube subs.
hsuresearch.com, get the 1203 driver, 4cu.ft. of sonotube, (18" diameter works well) and a pair of 4"x24" ports. Add bash500.
sew a 'sock' of black grill cloth, stretch over the sonotube, add a hardwood top and driver baffle, and you have great plant stands that rock. The shape makes them completely invisible as subs... no one expects round subs
That's tuned for max spl and is resonant at 25hz. Block one port and drop the tuning lower for jurassic park T-Rex stomps. If you don't you can kill a HSU sub due to overexcursion. It is probably one of the most 'musical' subs I've ever heard.
easily done for your budget.
I fill 40x80church's with bass from a pair of these.
just a different approach...
hsuresearch.com, get the 1203 driver, 4cu.ft. of sonotube, (18" diameter works well) and a pair of 4"x24" ports. Add bash500.
sew a 'sock' of black grill cloth, stretch over the sonotube, add a hardwood top and driver baffle, and you have great plant stands that rock. The shape makes them completely invisible as subs... no one expects round subs
That's tuned for max spl and is resonant at 25hz. Block one port and drop the tuning lower for jurassic park T-Rex stomps. If you don't you can kill a HSU sub due to overexcursion. It is probably one of the most 'musical' subs I've ever heard.
easily done for your budget.
I fill 40x80church's with bass from a pair of these.
just a different approach...
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