It would seem that integrating the A7 into a box without it being affected by the woofer you use will be the trick. I would assume it would need a separate enclosure correct, or at least a separate partition inside the proposed box. I could see the A7 working well with multiply woofers. I do like the idea of a setup that would cross a little higher than 100. I believe Dave had suggested higher earlier and I believe it would be nice to have the option of 300-500. I was going to try a pair of CA 22RNX woofers I have in tapped horn or T TQWT suggested by BJorno. Unfortunately it only extends to about 150, but I have heard that people really like the sound of a tapped horn sub. I have to finish my new amp before getting into the FAST thing. Oh yeah, there is the fact that I. Have never done thtis before.
Absolutely. The 7.3 is in a 6.3 litre compartment (Q0.7) while the L26ROY is in a 39 litre compartment (Q0.65). This is the first time I am using an active setup, and I can already say: I won't be going passive again unless somebody forces me at gunpoint
Sure Buzz, nothing much to see yet though; here's the rough test box with a Hypex AS2.100 lying on top:
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The discussion on push-push is spread all over the forum. One of the examples i use is on TLS.org toobz woofer That particular project is dead snce i had to give up one set of the woofers, but the idea lives on and has been implemented often (to a lesser extent, not many woofers let you bolt theu the pole-piece)
dave
Had some more time with the 7's. There are very clean sounding. I don't want to say critical, but I think that is where they are headed. They make a good recording sound wonderful and mercilessly punish something poorly recorded. I don't know if it the lack of low frequency response, but they can sound a bit too airy. I don't want to say this is true because i have yet too listen to them in a situation where they are balanced in response from top to bottom. They make me want to build the Firstwatt F3 for its supposed sweetness, perhaps polishing some of those sharp edges up high. It is my feeling that when mated properly with a woofer (or perhaps in larger enclosure), that air will blend perfectly and not sound fake like it can at times. Dave's dMakr Ken's helped tremendously over the millisize enclosures with overall response but they still need help. Remind me a lot of an active Linn system, often described as critical and ruthless, unless listening to quality recording where they shine. Jon Van Der Halen wrote about the Firstwatt F1 as being a truth machine. For now, that is how i will describe the A7.3. I truly believe in a bookshelf size enclosure like the dMark Ken's, they need bass augmentation. ON some stuff, it is OK, but you can still tell there is something missing and that something is important, as it is part of the recording. Mark has suggested that the Pensils go into the 40's. I have my doubts and have considering building them to see, but don't want to let plywood cost get ahead of me as I am not finished with many variations of this particular driver. I hope to be mating them to some woofers soon to see how a like them with the extra help. Unfortunately I will be busy for next little while and make take some time to get that up and running.
Hi Bob,
I've re-grouped your last post to help reply. Answering in their order:
1 - Yes, absolutely right. I designed the Alpair 7.Gen.3 (and previous) to be technically prescise. There's plenty of posts where I say: "Feed these Alps with your best recordings, make sure the source and amplification is quality as they wont take any prisoners". They're designed to serve those members who are more into the "purist" part of the hobby. I'm not sure why you continue to be negative about this aspect when its a primary well publicised feature of the 7 Gen. 3 driver.
2 - There's no lack LF, especially when compared to other same-sized Full-Rangers, the 7 Gen. 3's are very LF capable. You would have been pleasantly surprised in the company of several guys last night listening to 7 Gen 3's in Pensils at Kenneth's studio. They were playing double-bass music and enjoying the experience. Granted, any driver the small size of the 7 Gen.3 isn't going to kick out lots of low compared to a bigger woof, but in a large optimised box design, they do rather well for their size.
3 - No sure why you expect any small box to produce large bass. Your expectations aren't realistic.
From what I've read from your posts, you've not given enough thought about your needs before buying these drivers. I regularly say to members, think about your projects and systems as a whole entity, your musical preferences and room environment. For Markaudio, there's loads of comment and feedback on the drivers that forms very useful pre-purchasing research.
Cheers
Mark.
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Mark,
Please do not be offended in any way by my comments. My intention for this thread is well defined in the thread topic. I intend to walk through different variations or implementations of how the driver could be used. I started with a very small enclosure, the milli size box from Planet 10. I believe it did exactly what it was supposed to do. I believe I described what it was capable of pretty accurately, considering the box. That was the point. Clearly based on the enclosure, the issues I encountered with LF response are not unexpected. I next moved on to the dMark Kens from Dave. As expected, things improved very much overall. They sound wonderful, presenting a wide and deep soundstage, with great imaging and space around the different performers. On dense music, it easily outperforms the 10.2 IMO. In most of the above areas, I would agree with Dave that it is a better performer than the 10.2. But..., there are areas that I find lacking, right now, in the enclosures I have tried, thus far. One is well spoken of, LF response. I think you are correct and I am correct, that in this specific enclosure LF response is limited. I have not stated anywhere that this is unexpected or even a major problem, but if looking for a true audiophile speaker, it is necessary. As stated above, it is possible that the Pensils or even the Maeshowe could address this particular concern, but based on my experience with the 10.2, I don't think it is likely. The second issue I have is with its top end. I don't know if it is the amazing extension it has or the fact that it just needs a little more LF help, but they can sound too airy sometimes, almost generated. Clearly they are not generating sound from nothing, and i doubt they are not doing just as you have said and revealing exactly what they are being fed, but something is off. Perhaps I am just not accustomed to this level of detail. I believe that to be possible. I also believe it is possible that they sound thin. My instincts tell me that this is more than likely related to the LF response and is not a result of something being off, but rather not having the same purity of sound balanced throughout, from top to bottom. As a matter of opinion, after listening today for about 4 hours, I found myself quite excited about the idea of mating them with a woofer. The reason I was excited is because i believe that if properly mated to a woofer(s), they would make for a reference quality system, with very little to no shortcomings. I believe this is what you have intended them for. I am just pushing beyond the FR aspect. For the sake of fairness to you, I will build the Pensils so that i can provide feedback on them in a larger enclosure. I would imagine that as described in the past, they would give up finesse for extension. Finesse is why I bought them. I don't really want to give it up. That leaves only one option. Combine them with a well done woofer setup and let'em sing like I know they can. Keep the great drivers coming and I will keep buying them. I have been watching the MAOP 10.2 thread with great anticipation. I can't decide whether or not they would be ideal for the 10's or the 7's. Either way, I will probably do my best to get some. I don't know how to promote you product any better than buying them and telling everyone how good they sound.
The name is Justin, BTW.
Please do not be offended in any way by my comments. My intention for this thread is well defined in the thread topic. I intend to walk through different variations or implementations of how the driver could be used. I started with a very small enclosure, the milli size box from Planet 10. I believe it did exactly what it was supposed to do. I believe I described what it was capable of pretty accurately, considering the box. That was the point. Clearly based on the enclosure, the issues I encountered with LF response are not unexpected. I next moved on to the dMark Kens from Dave. As expected, things improved very much overall. They sound wonderful, presenting a wide and deep soundstage, with great imaging and space around the different performers. On dense music, it easily outperforms the 10.2 IMO. In most of the above areas, I would agree with Dave that it is a better performer than the 10.2. But..., there are areas that I find lacking, right now, in the enclosures I have tried, thus far. One is well spoken of, LF response. I think you are correct and I am correct, that in this specific enclosure LF response is limited. I have not stated anywhere that this is unexpected or even a major problem, but if looking for a true audiophile speaker, it is necessary. As stated above, it is possible that the Pensils or even the Maeshowe could address this particular concern, but based on my experience with the 10.2, I don't think it is likely. The second issue I have is with its top end. I don't know if it is the amazing extension it has or the fact that it just needs a little more LF help, but they can sound too airy sometimes, almost generated. Clearly they are not generating sound from nothing, and i doubt they are not doing just as you have said and revealing exactly what they are being fed, but something is off. Perhaps I am just not accustomed to this level of detail. I believe that to be possible. I also believe it is possible that they sound thin. My instincts tell me that this is more than likely related to the LF response and is not a result of something being off, but rather not having the same purity of sound balanced throughout, from top to bottom. As a matter of opinion, after listening today for about 4 hours, I found myself quite excited about the idea of mating them with a woofer. The reason I was excited is because i believe that if properly mated to a woofer(s), they would make for a reference quality system, with very little to no shortcomings. I believe this is what you have intended them for. I am just pushing beyond the FR aspect. For the sake of fairness to you, I will build the Pensils so that i can provide feedback on them in a larger enclosure. I would imagine that as described in the past, they would give up finesse for extension. Finesse is why I bought them. I don't really want to give it up. That leaves only one option. Combine them with a well done woofer setup and let'em sing like I know they can. Keep the great drivers coming and I will keep buying them. I have been watching the MAOP 10.2 thread with great anticipation. I can't decide whether or not they would be ideal for the 10's or the 7's. Either way, I will probably do my best to get some. I don't know how to promote you product any better than buying them and telling everyone how good they sound.
The name is Justin, BTW.I would imagine in some instances that it would sound a little thin and too airy in a smaller enclosure. Different driver, but I built a Mar-Kel70^2 which is great, but on some material it is just missing a little bottom end assistance.
I do enjoy the perspective on how these drivers sound in differing enclosures, and what I get from this is that they seem to do everything so well, and all they need help with in some instances is low frequency support. Given everything else they seem to do so well, the occasional need for low frequency reinforcement isn't something that sounds like much of a drawback.
I do enjoy the perspective on how these drivers sound in differing enclosures, and what I get from this is that they seem to do everything so well, and all they need help with in some instances is low frequency support. Given everything else they seem to do so well, the occasional need for low frequency reinforcement isn't something that sounds like much of a drawback.
Hi Justin,
I don't feel offended, this is good debate from both sides, done with respect.
I appreciate your contributions and glad you're sharing your ideas. My concerns about your early impressions is there's not enough appreciation of the physical LF limitations applying to small drivers in smaller enclosures. No surprise that the 7 Gen. 3 might lack LF, that's not down to the driver, its due to the limitation of a small box. I can see your logic in adding a woofer to suit your LF needs. It likely should give you the balance you're looking to achieve and looking into the Pensil (or a Jim Griffin MLTL type box?) is also worth consideration. As a guide, members looking for "BIG" LF output will likely need bigger sized boxes and/or woofs, no getting away from the laws of nature sadly. Your "thin" and "too airy" references are also likely symptomatic of having these drivers in a small box, but also depends on the rest of your set-up (amp and source).
The Pencils are a box remarkable design from Scott and Dave. At last night's listening session, Tony had just taken delivery of Ply-wood versions, hooked up to Kenneth's 300 B mono's and his custom pre in a large room around 8 metres X 7 metres, 4+ metre high ceiling; The combination was simply beautiful. They played Patricia Barber (see pics), lots of low double bass, the 7's delivered LF in bounds. Vocals were well balanced and highs were crystal without being harsh. Absolutely nothing "thin" came from this combo. Their set-up was very full-bodied and well balanced, more so than any 2 way system I've heard in recent times. Out of curiosity, I close measured the output of the driver and the vent, getting near identical 90dB (peak) output from both sources. While not an anechoic measurement, I was pleasantly surprised to find very little LF loss from the box's output. The point about this explanation is it illustrates what Diyer's can achieve. All credit to Tony, Kenneth and company for putting together a super-system.
Will a Pensil give you enough LF? Only one way to find out and that's to build a pair. But before doing that, its best to look at your audio setup and room situation as a whole entity. If your room is large and heavily damped, you might be better with woof assistance. If your amp is on the "sharp" side, or if its distortion is high under load, it likely won't be a nice marriage with 7 Gen 3's. Similarly, source material and equipment needs to be good for these Alps. I can't see any info on your system set-up or room. I did ask you to tell us about your setup in previous post but maybe I've missed this info?
Thanks
Mark.
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Any single driver has to compromise somewhere. The critical midrange is where i like to compromise least, which is why i prefer 3-4.5" drivers.
Needing low frequency assistance is not a sin. The 2 boxes that Justin has tried do not try to get maximum bass from the driver. The larger of the 2 attempts to get the most finesse out of the driver so that when a pair of helper woofers (eagerly awaiting A12 based woofers) are added you end up with a truly stellar system that can cover the full range of the music.
dave
Needing low frequency assistance is not a sin. The 2 boxes that Justin has tried do not try to get maximum bass from the driver. The larger of the 2 attempts to get the most finesse out of the driver so that when a pair of helper woofers (eagerly awaiting A12 based woofers) are added you end up with a truly stellar system that can cover the full range of the music.
dave
Hi Lerg, Guys,
I've got Pensil 6's 7's, 10's and 12's in a large 1200 square feet studio, lots of clean LF. Will they suit every room situation? Difficult to say but they are a serious full-bodied LF alternative for those members who want to keep their set-up simple and play with box adjustments (adding or taking out damping). For those members who want really big bass, woofs might in the end be needed.
The difficulty with the LF situation is that one person's idea of enough descent bass, is another's not-enough. As said before, audio beauty is in the ears of the beholder.
Cheers
Mark.
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Earlier I posted a picture of a first prototype of an active (Hypex AS2.100) Alpair 7.3 FAST loudspeaker, combined with a Seas 10" L26ROY side firing woofer. Since the I have done a lot of measurements and came up with a preliminary filter. This morning I hauled the thing downstairs to have a first listen. Basically today was go/no go day, to see whether this setup had any chance to be turned into a full range reference quality system.
After some adjustments in output level between the two loudspeaker chassis, and a slight reduction of baffle step augmentation (I settled on 3db) I played some high quality recordings:
First, one of the best pieces of music to test micro and macro dynamics:
Eiji Oue - Minnesota Orchestra: Exotic Dances From The Opera - Track 1: RIMSKY KORSAKOV - The Snow Maid
The woodwork at the start of the track sound full and authoritative, the Triangles that follow are sparkling and airy. So far, so good. But the real kicker is that the subsequent Kettle Drum just absolutely blows you away. The integration between the L26ROY and the Alpair is very very good. I cross them at 200 hz with a 4th order slope. At high volumes, the Alpair never sounds strained, but remains very poised.
Next track: Bach Cello Suite No. 5 in C minor by Rostropovic. I feel the Cello is one of the most demanding instruments the get right for any loudspeaker. There is so much energy in the 100-500 hz range that lesser loudspeaker units can choke and get muddy. This was a good test to see what the Alpair really was capable of. Also it served as an ultimate test of the integration between the two units. Would the much much heavier Seas keep up with the nimble Alpair? Would the Alpair choke on the lower registers it was fed? The short answer is: They both did splendidly well. I feel the rigid Aluminum cone of the Seas is a perfect match with the Alpair. The huge magnet keeps the heavy-ish cone in check so it never gets muddy. I get the feeling the L26ROY outperforms a lot of light coned woofers in the speed department.
Third track: Ana Caram - Blue Bossa. I played this track to get a good feel of the Alpairs vocal performance. In short, Ana Caram never sounded better. I have heard systems where she could get too chesty and/or shouty. Not a hint of that here.
This test gave me the confidence I am on the right track. The next step is to build two enclosures in the final design. I will keep you posted!
After some adjustments in output level between the two loudspeaker chassis, and a slight reduction of baffle step augmentation (I settled on 3db) I played some high quality recordings:
First, one of the best pieces of music to test micro and macro dynamics:
Eiji Oue - Minnesota Orchestra: Exotic Dances From The Opera - Track 1: RIMSKY KORSAKOV - The Snow Maid
The woodwork at the start of the track sound full and authoritative, the Triangles that follow are sparkling and airy. So far, so good. But the real kicker is that the subsequent Kettle Drum just absolutely blows you away. The integration between the L26ROY and the Alpair is very very good. I cross them at 200 hz with a 4th order slope. At high volumes, the Alpair never sounds strained, but remains very poised.
Next track: Bach Cello Suite No. 5 in C minor by Rostropovic. I feel the Cello is one of the most demanding instruments the get right for any loudspeaker. There is so much energy in the 100-500 hz range that lesser loudspeaker units can choke and get muddy. This was a good test to see what the Alpair really was capable of. Also it served as an ultimate test of the integration between the two units. Would the much much heavier Seas keep up with the nimble Alpair? Would the Alpair choke on the lower registers it was fed? The short answer is: They both did splendidly well. I feel the rigid Aluminum cone of the Seas is a perfect match with the Alpair. The huge magnet keeps the heavy-ish cone in check so it never gets muddy. I get the feeling the L26ROY outperforms a lot of light coned woofers in the speed department.
Third track: Ana Caram - Blue Bossa. I played this track to get a good feel of the Alpairs vocal performance. In short, Ana Caram never sounded better. I have heard systems where she could get too chesty and/or shouty. Not a hint of that here.
This test gave me the confidence I am on the right track. The next step is to build two enclosures in the final design. I will keep you posted!
Thank you for all the comments. This is type of discussion I was hoping for. I believe every thing you have stated Mark, I just think you are speaking of just the FR aspect of the driver. I am sure that i can get more from this driver on the low end, and that it might be fine for listening to most music, but my goal for this driver is to do as Dave has stated and keep them dialed in to what I believe they do best and augment the rest. While they may be able to go low, that doesn't mean they can do it as well as they can do mids and highs. If by relieving them of their low end duties, like Swifty, they are allowed to perform to their fullest in other ranges of the spectrum, why not. I believe the test Swifty has done is very well thought out and performed and is very helpful to anyone not seeking the purist FR route. I am not devoted to FR, but to good sound. If when using the A7, you get better overall sound with an woofer assisted FR unit, why not do so. In this respect, Mark, I believe you have another possible market open to you. Use what i believe to be your considerable talents to develop a woofer that will meld with your smaller units and create a speaker that is capable of reproducing the full audible spectrum without compromise or imbalance. I know this is a bit of a lofty statement, but i think you get the point. You make phenomenal drivers, like the 7.3, and I am simply trying to use them to their fullest potential, which i believe is very stellar for most situations.
Side note.
My system consist of custom SSD PC using J River Media to play lossless high resolution FLAC files, which are fed into a CS4398 balanced out DAC. This runs into a un/balanced Borberly preamp design, which runs into either Aleph J mono-blocks or new F5 with Toshiba 2sk2013/sj313 output. I could improve my system, but i believe we are entering the marginal taste based gain area.
Music inlcudes Patricia BArber, Lucinda Williams (gem of a recording artist which shines with 7.3), John Pattatucci, Dave Douglas, Diana Krall, Joni Mitchell, and other wonderful artist and orchestras.
Side note.
My system consist of custom SSD PC using J River Media to play lossless high resolution FLAC files, which are fed into a CS4398 balanced out DAC. This runs into a un/balanced Borberly preamp design, which runs into either Aleph J mono-blocks or new F5 with Toshiba 2sk2013/sj313 output. I could improve my system, but i believe we are entering the marginal taste based gain area.
Music inlcudes Patricia BArber, Lucinda Williams (gem of a recording artist which shines with 7.3), John Pattatucci, Dave Douglas, Diana Krall, Joni Mitchell, and other wonderful artist and orchestras.
I happen to agree with Buzz. The 7.3 might be fully capable of setting a realistic soundstage down to 40 hz in the right enclosure. I know the 10.2 does. However: Even the 10.2 would benefit from a good 10" woofer. There simply is just so much a transducer of such a size can do. This goes beyond wanting to play at higher spl. Even at low volume, a 10 incher has a fluent, effortless authority a small cone lacks due to basic physics. Also, the Alpair 7.3 now never goes beyond 1.5mm excursion in any circumstance, keeping it well within its linear range, which in turn keeps distortion very low.
This is not to say that a purist FR system cant be the ultimate solution for some, especially for smaller living rooms. For me however, I have found the FAST principle gets me the cake that I can eat too: All the benefits of a point source for the frequencies where directionality matters and the dynamics of a 3 way system. Anyone that has ever attended a live orchestra performance will recognise the impact of pure kick-in-the-gut dynamics. For me this is a large part of the full music listening experience. This part is what I miss from a single unit FR, and what I get in spades going the FAST route.
In my opinion we are experiencing the "perfect storm" in diyaudio at the moment: The extreme refinement of the full range concept by Mark, combined with affordable Class D active amplification by companies like Hypex and MiniDSP.
PS: Buzz: You mention that the Alapir can sound too airy: Let me assure you that combining it with a top quality woofer will rid you of that impression. I have simply never heard a transducer that can reproduce pure music at reference quality level over so many octaves period.
This is not to say that a purist FR system cant be the ultimate solution for some, especially for smaller living rooms. For me however, I have found the FAST principle gets me the cake that I can eat too: All the benefits of a point source for the frequencies where directionality matters and the dynamics of a 3 way system. Anyone that has ever attended a live orchestra performance will recognise the impact of pure kick-in-the-gut dynamics. For me this is a large part of the full music listening experience. This part is what I miss from a single unit FR, and what I get in spades going the FAST route.
In my opinion we are experiencing the "perfect storm" in diyaudio at the moment: The extreme refinement of the full range concept by Mark, combined with affordable Class D active amplification by companies like Hypex and MiniDSP.
PS: Buzz: You mention that the Alapir can sound too airy: Let me assure you that combining it with a top quality woofer will rid you of that impression. I have simply never heard a transducer that can reproduce pure music at reference quality level over so many octaves period.
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Great discussion guys. I am readying a Mar-Ken 7.3, and have a Super Pensil 12 for comparison - should be able to share some impressions by next week.
I've played around with CHR-70 extensively, and to some extent EL-70, both well known for digging pretty low. But I have to tell you, the Alp 12s with their bigger cones beat them in LF performance and they simply sound "bigger" and more powerful even vs dual-driver cabs for the smaller drivers. So one thing is, driver size counts...
For FAST, as Dave of Planet 10 advises, bi-amping would be a prerequisite for an "ultimate" sort of system. My experience with a wide variety of music is that the "balance" of the recording varies widely. For example, tracks from Sanjay Mishra's "Blue Incantation" sounds warm, with deep and detailed bass, and yet very detailed (glorious). Same set up - AC/DC's Razor Edge - sounds a bit edgy, and the harshness increases relatively more if I up the volume - sounds like the distortion in the recording (part of the "detail" here?) gets amplified more than the LF. BTW, the Alp 12 in the Super Pensils can generate plenty of low end (Inception OST tracks dug very deep), but if the track itself is dry or thin, that shows. I've had relief from this behavior by using some digital EQ. Bi-amping can definitely help here.
Amps themselves matter too - some amps have a relaxed sound, while with others (with bigger OPTs) I see more LF authority and tightness.
Look fwd to experiencing the Alp 7.3 in the Mar-Kens soon.
-Zia
I've played around with CHR-70 extensively, and to some extent EL-70, both well known for digging pretty low. But I have to tell you, the Alp 12s with their bigger cones beat them in LF performance and they simply sound "bigger" and more powerful even vs dual-driver cabs for the smaller drivers. So one thing is, driver size counts...
For FAST, as Dave of Planet 10 advises, bi-amping would be a prerequisite for an "ultimate" sort of system. My experience with a wide variety of music is that the "balance" of the recording varies widely. For example, tracks from Sanjay Mishra's "Blue Incantation" sounds warm, with deep and detailed bass, and yet very detailed (glorious). Same set up - AC/DC's Razor Edge - sounds a bit edgy, and the harshness increases relatively more if I up the volume - sounds like the distortion in the recording (part of the "detail" here?) gets amplified more than the LF. BTW, the Alp 12 in the Super Pensils can generate plenty of low end (Inception OST tracks dug very deep), but if the track itself is dry or thin, that shows. I've had relief from this behavior by using some digital EQ. Bi-amping can definitely help here.
Amps themselves matter too - some amps have a relaxed sound, while with others (with bigger OPTs) I see more LF authority and tightness.
Look fwd to experiencing the Alp 7.3 in the Mar-Kens soon
.-Zia
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I have been listening to Symphonie fantastique by the Utah Symphony. It is a quality recording. It truly shows just how impressive the 7.3's are in the mids and highs. I am truly impressed by the fact that this single driver does not sound congested in any way. I usually listen with my speakers at least 2-3 from the rear wall as this generally gives the best presentation of space and separation in the recording. To help reinforce the LE, I pushed them back against the wall, standing out only a foot or so. It did help equalize things. I am very impressed with these drivers but stand by my recommendation that for best utilization, they need a woofer. the one caveat to this is a smaller room. In a smaller room, I think it is possible for them to be fine as quite a bit of LF is gained when moving nearfeild. I believe they could go deeper, but i simply do not want to sacrifice what I am getting from Dave's MarKen enclosures. Dave, you and Mark have done a wonderful job. MY next goal is to add a woofer or two and listen to these babies sing. It will be interesting to see how it works. FYI Bob Brines crosses his 7's at about 100hZ with a sub. I think I may try a little higher like Swifty in an attempt to fill in the low end and give it some real girth. I am new to speaker designing so it will probably be slow and i will need help. I will work as fast as i can.
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