Wow, this thread became impressive!!!
I've loved Russki tubes back from '99, when I started tinkering with tubes. I was shocked at EU/USA NOS tube prices.
For example I wasted my hard earned cash on some NOS Mullard ECC88 gold pins, just to find it sounded dark and thin. No, and it wasn't a bias/starved design problem.
But I found someone in Spain selling russian tubes, and he introduced me to them.
I bought all useable tubes I could for my task, 70% of my tube collection are russian tubes from 70-80's. And started experimenting.
For drivers, I liked the 6n23p, but liked much much more the 6n1p (wich is NOT a sub for ECC88/6n23p/6922 tubes).
I got (now I wish I have bought more) a pair of 6H30P-DR , I believe they're from mid 70 or early 80's. I also have 6n6P and 6N6P-i and whoever says 6H30P-DR is a "relabeled" 6n6p-i either hasn't seen a "real" one or hasn't tried/listened it.
That "Urban Legend" only applies for modern production ones, now I understand that after Vlauga explanation
Of course, the prices asked afterwards after BAT canibalized all real 6H30P-DR stocks skyrocketed and IMHO aren't reasonable/worthy at all.
My driver preference: 6H30P-DR, 6N1P, 6H23p.
For driver (depending on the gain needed) I'd try 6N1P-EB, 6N2P-EB, 6H30P (current ones, if found for reasonable prices) and 6H8C. (octal).
I believe there was once an octal version of the 6H30P, the 6H30C. I'm curious about it...
I'll post a comparative pic of a "real" 6H30P-DR, modern 6H30P, 6N6P and 6N6P-i.
I've loved Russki tubes back from '99, when I started tinkering with tubes. I was shocked at EU/USA NOS tube prices.
For example I wasted my hard earned cash on some NOS Mullard ECC88 gold pins, just to find it sounded dark and thin. No, and it wasn't a bias/starved design problem.
But I found someone in Spain selling russian tubes, and he introduced me to them.
I bought all useable tubes I could for my task, 70% of my tube collection are russian tubes from 70-80's. And started experimenting.
For drivers, I liked the 6n23p, but liked much much more the 6n1p (wich is NOT a sub for ECC88/6n23p/6922 tubes).
I got (now I wish I have bought more) a pair of 6H30P-DR , I believe they're from mid 70 or early 80's. I also have 6n6P and 6N6P-i and whoever says 6H30P-DR is a "relabeled" 6n6p-i either hasn't seen a "real" one or hasn't tried/listened it.
That "Urban Legend" only applies for modern production ones, now I understand that after Vlauga explanation
Of course, the prices asked afterwards after BAT canibalized all real 6H30P-DR stocks skyrocketed and IMHO aren't reasonable/worthy at all.
My driver preference: 6H30P-DR, 6N1P, 6H23p.
For driver (depending on the gain needed) I'd try 6N1P-EB, 6N2P-EB, 6H30P (current ones, if found for reasonable prices) and 6H8C. (octal).
I believe there was once an octal version of the 6H30P, the 6H30C. I'm curious about it...
I'll post a comparative pic of a "real" 6H30P-DR, modern 6H30P, 6N6P and 6N6P-i.
The link I posted has stopped working. This happens sometimes when a link gets too much traffic, the ISP diverts the link to a parking page. This is the slow way to get to the data, which is reliable.
Go to http://www.tubedata.info and select one of the sites holding the data by clicking on a flag. Then click on the "more" link in the top right hand corner, which takes you to the menu for documents that are about valves, but not data sheets. Select "manufacturers index", then "Mashpriborintorg" to reach the Russian valve catalogue, which is a PDF. It will download if you click on it. The information is in Russian and English. Unfortunately, the data is too early to include information on the 6n30p.
Go to http://www.tubedata.info and select one of the sites holding the data by clicking on a flag. Then click on the "more" link in the top right hand corner, which takes you to the menu for documents that are about valves, but not data sheets. Select "manufacturers index", then "Mashpriborintorg" to reach the Russian valve catalogue, which is a PDF. It will download if you click on it. The information is in Russian and English. Unfortunately, the data is too early to include information on the 6n30p.
Vlauga said:
Not necessary, as I wrote before, my father in law used such computers in Akademiya Nauk for biological calculations.
And speaking of "muddy", all depends on how to use the tube. Any tube. Even "Magic Eye" 6E1P can sound nice if used properly.
I like it. They finally could make 1,000 uF Teflon capacitor of half inch length!
Anatoliy
Anatoly, you excuse me, but your daddy, instead of you) And I know, how many the such could be tens years ago, especially in a usual Russian science.) Time in Tomsk studied, probably should know about tomske-7))). So in a science there are such concepts, as a datum point and a relativity)).
If till now it was not possible to you to hear a qualitative vacuum-tube sound. I once again iterate. 6N6P sounds turbidly and carelessly. Concerning the majority of sound tubes. Especially, if have possibility to use at least the American tubes, I do not speak about the old European.)
BW, VU
If till now it was not possible to you to hear a qualitative vacuum-tube sound. I once again iterate. 6N6P sounds turbidly and carelessly. Concerning the majority of sound tubes. Especially, if have possibility to use at least the American tubes, I do not speak about the old European.)
BW, VU
Vlauga said:
Do you mean he lied to me?
Strictly speaking, first American computers were made for military purposes as well. Now you can see microprocessors inside of toys fir kids, so it's not an argument.
Speaking of tube sound, I can't change your belief; you may believe in some kind of magic, it's your right. But for those who reads the thread I'll repeat once more: sound of tubes does not exist. What does exist, depending on working conditions such as currents, voltages, impedances, tubes have different transfer functions. Power dissipated by electrodes change their temperatures hence transfer functions, that's what the majority don't understand, but it is not a magic. It is plain physics.
As written in well known in Russia book, "They are not bad, Shweik! You can't cook them!"
Anatoly, I has understood you)
It turns out, "sovok" a word international, without dependence, where you live))
I understand, that household concepts in the absence of scientific school prevail, but all the same think of concepts a relativity and a datum point.
Or "And judges who?" (Griboedov, 1824))))
It turns out, "sovok" a word international, without dependence, where you live))
I understand, that household concepts in the absence of scientific school prevail, but all the same think of concepts a relativity and a datum point.
Or "And judges who?" (Griboedov, 1824))))
Vlauga said:
Judges as you know are fellow engineers and DIYers who respect each other even when their opinions differ. Tubes may not be good drop-in replacements for other tubes (that's the reason for urban legends of good- or bad- sounding tubes), but when properly used all of them "sound".
If the rig was well designed use tubes in specs with what was expected by the original manufacturer of the equipment, otherwise results are unpredictable.
Shape of getter and color of base does not matter; what matters is how close are electrical parameters of the tube (especially dependencies of currents on voltages) to what the rig was designed for. Even when RCA manufactured 6L6's all like twin brothers anyway Fender and others used trimpots to adjust idle currents. Those days all manufacturers tried to follow specs so tubes would be interchangeable no matter which brand was used. However, Germans always tended to follow specs and standards more thoroughly than Russians, that's why say NOS Telefunkens' are more expensive than say NOS Saratovs'. They are not better, they do not "sound fat, sweet, ..." (insert desirable), they are STRICT. If it is labeled say ECC82 it IS THE ECC82, but neither ECC81.999, nor ECC82.0001. If the Original Designer tuned his rig, selecting certain resistors to get the end result he was working on, using tubes with certain tolerances of parameters, it means that the tube must have that parameters in ranges. Everything else means extra distortions, and never better sound. Period.
Hi Anatoliy,
I'm 100% behind you on this. We are in full agreement with each other.
I would like to experiment with some Russian (or Soviet) tubes, but I could use your guidance as to which ones are for what application. You can PM me if you'd rather.
Hi Vlauga,
What do you mean by the word "sovok"? I looked it up and came across this definition :
If this was intended as an insult to Anatoliy, an apology should be made. We do not allow this kind of comment here. If you meant it as a joke of some kind, explain please.
As for the sound of one tube vs another, I have said the same things that Anatoliy has. This is the actual fact of how these things work and the reason why there can be so much trouble when people change tubes and get different sound. Also, if the equipment was properly designed for one tube, another with different characteristics will have higher distortion.
-Chris
I'm 100% behind you on this. We are in full agreement with each other.
I would like to experiment with some Russian (or Soviet) tubes, but I could use your guidance as to which ones are for what application. You can PM me if you'd rather.
Hi Vlauga,
What do you mean by the word "sovok"? I looked it up and came across this definition :
If this was intended as an insult to Anatoliy, an apology should be made. We do not allow this kind of comment here. If you meant it as a joke of some kind, explain please.
As for the sound of one tube vs another, I have said the same things that Anatoliy has. This is the actual fact of how these things work and the reason why there can be so much trouble when people change tubes and get different sound. Also, if the equipment was properly designed for one tube, another with different characteristics will have higher distortion.
-Chris
Gentlemen, please consider, whilst I unroll the outsider viewpoint, then tell me where I am wrong and where I am right.
I am not surprised that there is disagreement, when you only have the experience of your individual ends of the country. I went for my master's degree in Middlesex, which does not have a history of valve making - but I come from the North, I have lived near Blackburn -
This is the way I see the problems of opinion have arisen - from 40 years of experience, dealing with thermionic audio devices, and knowledge that I have acquired so subtly that I cannot explain where I remember it from -
There were specifications laid down for valves in the USSR/CCP which were very difficult to change, because of the bureaucratic system.
Inside the valve factories, there were internal specifications which had token adherence to the specifications, but a real desire to give the consumers/customers what they wanted.
Because the specification system was not flexible, the factories all had different internal "specifications" which determined that what they made was what the end user wanted. Inside the system were variations, the end user ordered from a particular factory, and got what he needed.
This is why a 6p3s made in St Petersburg is a direct copy of a 6L6, whereas a 6p3s made in Saratov is an entirely different Russian design, with much better power handlng capacity - and why a 6n23p made in Voskhod works sonically better than one made in Ukraine, although the Ukrainian valve is less microphonic and will withstand more negative bias -actually the specified limits. You can run a Mullard E88CC at -15V, and it will perform, when the Voskhod valve will make your ears ache from the microphonics. But reduce the bias, and the Voskhod 6n23p will give a rich and full sound, while the Mullard is still trying to get there.
And also why, if you can get hold of them, CZ made Tesla 6n2p are the absolute ultimate preamp triodes (that is a very big secret to give out in the name of peace - if you do not count the bigger secret of my hoard of ECC807, and Mullard 6AQ4, in the garage).
It was not possible to change the specifications once they were published. Variations could be made, and the v (B) suffix in particular was often used to achieve this.
When faced with an inflexible system, human ingenuity knows no bounds, when necessity is the mother of invention. All the factories in Russia made what they made and sold them to customers who were grateful for consistent quality and good lifetime, even if the specification was not adhered to. The specification was for foreigners ...
If you guys want to be USEFUL to the world, you should spend time finding those soviet documents that the rest of us cannot understand, revealing the silent knowledge, and giving us the benefit of that knowledge. I do not "do" Russian - I studied German as the alternative, I should have studied Spanish. There is a lot out there, on the web - it is all in Cyrillic, and a lot is written in Ukranian, which is "too heavy" for most people. Most of the tiny fragment of info that I have acquired over the years has come from Ukrainian sources.
Completely as an aside - I was looking around my PC and found the spec sheets for the 6n30p-dr and the 6n23p-ev. Send me a PM with your email if you want them.
I am not surprised that there is disagreement, when you only have the experience of your individual ends of the country. I went for my master's degree in Middlesex, which does not have a history of valve making - but I come from the North, I have lived near Blackburn -
This is the way I see the problems of opinion have arisen - from 40 years of experience, dealing with thermionic audio devices, and knowledge that I have acquired so subtly that I cannot explain where I remember it from -
There were specifications laid down for valves in the USSR/CCP which were very difficult to change, because of the bureaucratic system.
Inside the valve factories, there were internal specifications which had token adherence to the specifications, but a real desire to give the consumers/customers what they wanted.
Because the specification system was not flexible, the factories all had different internal "specifications" which determined that what they made was what the end user wanted. Inside the system were variations, the end user ordered from a particular factory, and got what he needed.
This is why a 6p3s made in St Petersburg is a direct copy of a 6L6, whereas a 6p3s made in Saratov is an entirely different Russian design, with much better power handlng capacity - and why a 6n23p made in Voskhod works sonically better than one made in Ukraine, although the Ukrainian valve is less microphonic and will withstand more negative bias -actually the specified limits. You can run a Mullard E88CC at -15V, and it will perform, when the Voskhod valve will make your ears ache from the microphonics. But reduce the bias, and the Voskhod 6n23p will give a rich and full sound, while the Mullard is still trying to get there.
And also why, if you can get hold of them, CZ made Tesla 6n2p are the absolute ultimate preamp triodes (that is a very big secret to give out in the name of peace - if you do not count the bigger secret of my hoard of ECC807, and Mullard 6AQ4, in the garage).
It was not possible to change the specifications once they were published. Variations could be made, and the v (B) suffix in particular was often used to achieve this.
When faced with an inflexible system, human ingenuity knows no bounds, when necessity is the mother of invention. All the factories in Russia made what they made and sold them to customers who were grateful for consistent quality and good lifetime, even if the specification was not adhered to. The specification was for foreigners ...
If you guys want to be USEFUL to the world, you should spend time finding those soviet documents that the rest of us cannot understand, revealing the silent knowledge, and giving us the benefit of that knowledge. I do not "do" Russian - I studied German as the alternative, I should have studied Spanish. There is a lot out there, on the web - it is all in Cyrillic, and a lot is written in Ukranian, which is "too heavy" for most people. Most of the tiny fragment of info that I have acquired over the years has come from Ukrainian sources.
Completely as an aside - I was looking around my PC and found the spec sheets for the 6n30p-dr and the 6n23p-ev. Send me a PM with your email if you want them.
anatech
Unfortunately, this word is misinterpreted by yours www a resource.
For the modern Russia it does not mean presence of totalitarian thinking. On the contrary, it means presence of the modern Russian thinking. !!!
Word "You do not know how to cook" the major attribute of such modern Russian thinking, by the way.
But again I repeat, for those who do not want to cruelly disappointed. And for those who have good ears to hear. From the Soviet tubes for top-level sound fit only a few names. A datum point - the best European and American tubes. And 6N6P into this number does not enter.
As it does not "to cook").
Operational experience with this tube since 1968. And when have started to make tube 6N30P-DR (in 70-s') I was inexpressibly glad, that there was sounding replacement for more current driver.
Unfortunately, this word is misinterpreted by yours www a resource.
For the modern Russia it does not mean presence of totalitarian thinking. On the contrary, it means presence of the modern Russian thinking. !!!
Word "You do not know how to cook" the major attribute of such modern Russian thinking, by the way.
But again I repeat, for those who do not want to cruelly disappointed. And for those who have good ears to hear. From the Soviet tubes for top-level sound fit only a few names. A datum point - the best European and American tubes. And 6N6P into this number does not enter.
As it does not "to cook").
Operational experience with this tube since 1968. And when have started to make tube 6N30P-DR (in 70-s') I was inexpressibly glad, that there was sounding replacement for more current driver.
Vlauga said:
I don't know what kind of thinking did you mean, but I meant that tube itself does not "sound muddy", what sounds "muddy" is an amplifier where the tube is used improperly. I used many tubes that are out of fashion, or were not considered as good tubes for audio, with expected results. I have an experience that differs from those who judge tubes swapping them just to try how do they "sound" in the same socket of the same amp...
So, if the 6N6P tube sounds "muddy" as you said, the tube is innocent. 6N6P are used in my amplifiers to drive output stages of amplifiers that are great, and don't sound "muddy". Why? I suppose because I know how to use them. This is my personal opinion, as a professional electronics designer, as a professional audio engineer, as a singer, and and an audiophile. And people who auditioned my amplifiers, and people who auditioned nice speakers on a Burning Amp Festival in San Francisco can second that.
Disclaimer: I don't sell tubes. I buy them.
Hi Vlauga,
As long as Anatoliy is okay with that, fine. I don't understand Russian or what may constitute an insult.
I agree with Anatoliy. About the only tubes I would consider as bad sounding might be the variable mu types. Otherwise, a bad sounding tube is simply one used in a circuit that wasn't designed for it. It really is that simple.
A tube doesn't make a sound, it only has a transfer curve that must be considered before designing a circuit and running signals through it. Most "tube rollers" haven't got the foggiest idea how a tube really works, or what the transfer characteristics mean. For instance, a gold grid doesn't sound better, but it isn't coated with cathode material as easily as a non-coated grid wire. So I guess if the tube is abused, the gold one will retain it's original performance longer.
-Chris
As long as Anatoliy is okay with that, fine. I don't understand Russian or what may constitute an insult.
I agree with Anatoliy. About the only tubes I would consider as bad sounding might be the variable mu types. Otherwise, a bad sounding tube is simply one used in a circuit that wasn't designed for it. It really is that simple.
A tube doesn't make a sound, it only has a transfer curve that must be considered before designing a circuit and running signals through it. Most "tube rollers" haven't got the foggiest idea how a tube really works, or what the transfer characteristics mean. For instance, a gold grid doesn't sound better, but it isn't coated with cathode material as easily as a non-coated grid wire. So I guess if the tube is abused, the gold one will retain it's original performance longer.
-Chris
sparkle said:i have been searching on the net.....
ilimzn was right - as usual
"I" version is for pulse operation - and also it is 500 hours variation of the tube.... the one without the "I" is the one that can be used 2000 hours....
it seems that "I" one is no good for me.... to bad.... i will play with it when i catch the time - to see if those two will be good in line... and in future i will try to find only plain 6N6P versions......
thanks guys.....
As dotfret said, keep in mind that operation hours guarantee is also a part of the spec, so for the I type tubes it corresponds to I type operating conditions, which are much harsher than what you will find in audio. In reality it is quite possible the I type tube may last longer, assuming other things do not prevent audio use - like noise or microphonics.
Also, 6N6P and 6N30P are quite different inside, IF you get a real 6N30. Someone mentioned this already, there are a lot of 'rebranded' 6N6P posing as 6N30 out there, ever since 6N30 have become relatively scarce and the prices have skyrocketed. And of course, since 6N6P can still be sold for audio, while 6N6P-I will be frowned uppon as potentially problematic, which will make stocks linger, it stands to reason 6N6P-I would be more likely to be rebranded. Nothing like making a tube that does not sell well into one that sells for premium prices - even if only 30% of your stock turns out to satisgy noise and microphonics considerations (and this is assuming they are even tested for this...).
ilimzn said:
From my own experience of fixing Soviet TV sets usual reason to replace tubes was lost emission, so I suppose "I" will last longer when used in relaxed modes when strong pulse currents are not required.
Speaking of tricks with specs, 6P3S-E are named as long living 6P3S, but if to look in datasheet such warranty was related to lower power dissipation. However, constructions of 6P3S and 6P3S-E are different, but in my amps they have nearly equal life (actually, I did not see differences), because I used both types with lowered plate power dissipation, and screen grid voltages were lowered and regulated. I did that primarily with distortions in mind, though...
Hi Wavebourn!
Thanks a lot for the cool pictures which are very informative. I know the original 6N30 Reflector tubes have become very expensive compared to the Sovtek 6N30 shown in your pictures.
When talking about "sound characteristics" of different tubes / circuits, what is your opinion about the two types of 6N30 tubes when compared both technically and sonically (if any sonic difference at all???)?
Kind regards
Karsten
Thanks a lot for the cool pictures which are very informative. I know the original 6N30 Reflector tubes have become very expensive compared to the Sovtek 6N30 shown in your pictures.
When talking about "sound characteristics" of different tubes / circuits, what is your opinion about the two types of 6N30 tubes when compared both technically and sonically (if any sonic difference at all???)?
Kind regards
Karsten
Karsten Sømand said:
Karsten; let me rephrase myself. In order to generate different kind of distortions, you need to apply different voltages, use different resistances, use tubes with different geometries and with electrodes made of different materials, and of course you will have different results that can be auditioned for entertainment purposes.