I have done some playing around since I managed to find the factory parameters.
Maximum EQ on my little mixer is 12dB at a "Q" of .5 and 24 Hz is the lowest setting.
If I can get 100db or so from these it will be enough as 96dB at the property boundary is the legal maximum.
Given the comments on the box size being too big I went down quite a bit.
@ Ben, my apologies if I was surly, it was late and I am sitting home crippled with an infected operation on ingrown toenails and I am bored and frustrated in the extreme.
Maximum EQ on my little mixer is 12dB at a "Q" of .5 and 24 Hz is the lowest setting.
If I can get 100db or so from these it will be enough as 96dB at the property boundary is the legal maximum.
Given the comments on the box size being too big I went down quite a bit.
@ Ben, my apologies if I was surly, it was late and I am sitting home crippled with an infected operation on ingrown toenails and I am bored and frustrated in the extreme.
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Moondog,
Not wanting to continue the argument above, I assumed as much as what you just said. You want to feel the bass hit you and going down to 20hz and just ******* off the neighbors may not be your desire. Unless it is........
First thing for you to do is tell us what speakers you have and the model. Then we can figure out what you can really do with them. If you are willing to build a rather large enclosure or two of them you could probably horn load those 12" cones and get what you are after. The free air resonance limit that you would have in a sealed or ported enclosure is hard to overcome without electronic boost and the power required to drive them. With a horn you could get that punchy bass and not need all that much power to do it. I hope this doesn't start another argument here. . I have built many a horn loaded enclosure and as long as you don't really need to hit 20 hz I think that we can help you out there. We aren't talking about a low distortion design, just a simple design that can make your barbeque party fun. Let's see what you have and we can take it from there. You won't need high excursion with the horn, but it will be large to get there outdoors.
Not wanting to continue the argument above, I assumed as much as what you just said. You want to feel the bass hit you and going down to 20hz and just ******* off the neighbors may not be your desire. Unless it is........
First thing for you to do is tell us what speakers you have and the model. Then we can figure out what you can really do with them. If you are willing to build a rather large enclosure or two of them you could probably horn load those 12" cones and get what you are after. The free air resonance limit that you would have in a sealed or ported enclosure is hard to overcome without electronic boost and the power required to drive them. With a horn you could get that punchy bass and not need all that much power to do it. I hope this doesn't start another argument here. . I have built many a horn loaded enclosure and as long as you don't really need to hit 20 hz I think that we can help you out there. We aren't talking about a low distortion design, just a simple design that can make your barbeque party fun. Let's see what you have and we can take it from there. You won't need high excursion with the horn, but it will be large to get there outdoors.
I don't have the physical space in the shed to to store a horn, a big sealed box on wheels is at least a little portable.
Quite honestly a sealed box is with-in my woodwork capabilities and fits as far as the cost goes. I can use chipboard for a sealed box and from my limited understanding the horn needs 18mm plywood which the restrained budget won't allow.
Quite honestly a sealed box is with-in my woodwork capabilities and fits as far as the cost goes. I can use chipboard for a sealed box and from my limited understanding the horn needs 18mm plywood which the restrained budget won't allow.
Had not considered this. it may not be within my woodwork capabilities but if anyone was willing to help with the design ( and the end result was able to fit into the shed for storage ) I may be able to construct- if funds for the plywood are there that is.
I priced ply last week, 18mm AA Brazilian is $145- a sheet, local void-free AA hoop pine is 3 times that
2 cents.
Sometimes stuffing as many drivers in a big box is just fun. Sometimes not taking all the science too seriously and doing a 80% design really is the way to go. We have all had projects that started out fun and turned into hard science and no fun.
Fun for fun's sake, cant be bad.
Get into it Dog...
PS. Can i come to your BBQ? I'll bring my "techno" collection!
Sometimes stuffing as many drivers in a big box is just fun. Sometimes not taking all the science too seriously and doing a 80% design really is the way to go. We have all had projects that started out fun and turned into hard science and no fun.
Fun for fun's sake, cant be bad.
Get into it Dog...
PS. Can i come to your BBQ? I'll bring my "techno" collection!
Geelong is about an hour from my place, I'll bring some snags / tools and come and help build, If you can wait 6 weeks for me to get back from Central Java lol.
I imagine you may have it finished by then, so I'll just have to come for the "breaking-in" bbq
If you do need tools/extra set of hands in the future don't hesitate to ask.
I imagine you may have it finished by then, so I'll just have to come for the "breaking-in" bbq
If you do need tools/extra set of hands in the future don't hesitate to ask.
just read through this thread. and ive got to say, the link im about to paste is epic.
i built one of this design to test it with an Alpine S12. and it blew me away on just one.
i then built two more and fitted cheap crappy 15s into them. and got blown away all over again.
i then blew them. and then blew the replacements. and then i bought REAL drivers. and OMG. Epic, just doesnt cover it.
seriously. build even TWO of these sub cabs and you will. WILL. have enough bass, even out of 2x 12inch subs to rumble your guts OUTSIDE with minimal power.
READ THIS>>>
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge.html
i built one of this design to test it with an Alpine S12. and it blew me away on just one.
i then built two more and fitted cheap crappy 15s into them. and got blown away all over again.
i then blew them. and then blew the replacements. and then i bought REAL drivers. and OMG. Epic, just doesnt cover it.
seriously. build even TWO of these sub cabs and you will. WILL. have enough bass, even out of 2x 12inch subs to rumble your guts OUTSIDE with minimal power.
READ THIS>>>
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge.html
Hi Moondoog55,
A tapped horn for this driver should probably be a new design. Just stuffing the driver into the SS15 box might not work too well, and the SS15 does not have bass extension to, Post #4: "...around 22-35...".
Taking your initial box dimensions, you could build a simple (not at all highly tuned) vented box using two of your 12" drivers. Using the T/S data from Post #24 it will need 4ea. 4"Dia.x10"long port tubes (or equivalent port): Ap=324.3cm^2 and Lpt=25.4cm. Try it in Bagby's software and see what you get, in Hornresp it does not look at all critical. You will need a 20Hz low cut filter. I used the same Eg=2.83V for both simulations.
The box material could be chipboard, just make sure that you provide a lot of bracing (the Bozak Concert Grand comes to mind). You could use the same basic box to try this out.
Regards,
A tapped horn for this driver should probably be a new design. Just stuffing the driver into the SS15 box might not work too well, and the SS15 does not have bass extension to, Post #4: "...around 22-35...".
Taking your initial box dimensions, you could build a simple (not at all highly tuned) vented box using two of your 12" drivers. Using the T/S data from Post #24 it will need 4ea. 4"Dia.x10"long port tubes (or equivalent port): Ap=324.3cm^2 and Lpt=25.4cm. Try it in Bagby's software and see what you get, in Hornresp it does not look at all critical. You will need a 20Hz low cut filter. I used the same Eg=2.83V for both simulations.
The box material could be chipboard, just make sure that you provide a lot of bracing (the Bozak Concert Grand comes to mind). You could use the same basic box to try this out.
Regards,
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just from personal experience TB, putting a 12inch car sub (not sure what OP has tho) actually lowered the lowest response and it did rumble pretty well down there. correct, with the JB1500N, the lowest cutoff is quite noticable, but the 12, not so much. so, in my experienced opinion, at least a pair of SS15 cabs with a 12, could make the OP quite happy. and i also listen to electronic music, with a lot of low tuning.
The trouble with tapped horns is that they tend to have limited bandwidth. You have to consider your desired bandwidth, extension goal, driver and design all together. They don't seem to like doing 2 octaves, but just slightly less.
For this situation I'd probably be thinking vented box. What bandwidth do you need from this?
Try to mount drivers dual opposed. That means one driver on the front, the other on the back, mirror image. Why do this? Vibration goes way down, so you either get a box with less vibration, or you save yourself weight and box complexity. It makes quite a difference. So you could make a tower with 3 drivers front, 3 rear of the box. A box of those proportions might be easier to move and sit in your garage with a smaller footprint.
Antripodean on this forum is giving away a horn box ... listed on SNA. It's basically an F20 which is 1.5 x 0.7 x 0.5m, needs a pair of 10" drivers and gets down nicely to 25 Hz with 95 db 1w1m. Too big?
We built it together for the fun of it, but I think he wants the space back now! It has a nice beefy thunderous kind of bass that would be a lot of fun for outdoors back yard parties. You could go nuts and build another one and it's actually not a difficult build. We built it with some cheap formply costing $40/sheet, about $120 worth along with a stack of screws and a stack of cheap construction adhesive.
Again like the tapped horn, not a lot of top end so I guess you'd want to cross around 80 Hz with something like this.
Now just by way of comparison, if you made a 250 L vented box with a Celestion 18HDX, you get the same efficiency, and about 30 Hz extension. Smaller box but still quite large and less extension.
For this situation I'd probably be thinking vented box. What bandwidth do you need from this?
Try to mount drivers dual opposed. That means one driver on the front, the other on the back, mirror image. Why do this? Vibration goes way down, so you either get a box with less vibration, or you save yourself weight and box complexity. It makes quite a difference. So you could make a tower with 3 drivers front, 3 rear of the box. A box of those proportions might be easier to move and sit in your garage with a smaller footprint.
Antripodean on this forum is giving away a horn box ... listed on SNA. It's basically an F20 which is 1.5 x 0.7 x 0.5m, needs a pair of 10" drivers and gets down nicely to 25 Hz with 95 db 1w1m. Too big?
We built it together for the fun of it, but I think he wants the space back now! It has a nice beefy thunderous kind of bass that would be a lot of fun for outdoors back yard parties. You could go nuts and build another one and it's actually not a difficult build. We built it with some cheap formply costing $40/sheet, about $120 worth along with a stack of screws and a stack of cheap construction adhesive.
Again like the tapped horn, not a lot of top end so I guess you'd want to cross around 80 Hz with something like this.
Now just by way of comparison, if you made a 250 L vented box with a Celestion 18HDX, you get the same efficiency, and about 30 Hz extension. Smaller box but still quite large and less extension.
Good comment Paul.
I think a tapped horn has to be in my "To do" list but for simplicity I really do think the party bass needs to be sealed. partly because it is just easier but also with a fairly high "Qts" and limited excursion the "Ideal" ported box will exceed 2500litres and give a very peaky response.
Sealed with parametric 12dB @ 30Hz EQ looks better on the plot Probably a lot easier to pass to the mid-tops around 200/250 as well although the plot shows 4th LR ( I use a cheap Behringer CX unit with this mixer 0 at 135
I think a tapped horn has to be in my "To do" list but for simplicity I really do think the party bass needs to be sealed. partly because it is just easier but also with a fairly high "Qts" and limited excursion the "Ideal" ported box will exceed 2500litres and give a very peaky response.
Sealed with parametric 12dB @ 30Hz EQ looks better on the plot Probably a lot easier to pass to the mid-tops around 200/250 as well although the plot shows 4th LR ( I use a cheap Behringer CX unit with this mixer 0 at 135
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any "subwoofer" capable of low bass, tends to sound quite distorted at higher frequencies regardless of its design or quality. ie: passing it at 100hz or lower or it will sound rather boomy and empty IMO.
also add to the fact that i went from 2 reflex cabs fitted with a 15 in each to having two horns with the same driver in, and i have to say, the sound quality difference was AMAZING! not to mention that you had to basically be standing right in front of the reflex cabs to feel it, where as you could stand 5-10m back and still be feeling the kick through 2dozen people.
to achieve less than 40hz outside will take BIG subwoofers. even lots of 12inch drivers will stuggle to achieve that frequency when outside. especially in a reflex cab.
best thing about horns, is they couple the driver properly, so when producing sound within the ideal frequency range, the cone movement is quite substantially damped and well controlled, so BIG Xmax, isnt a specific requirement of a horn sub. where as in a reflex/sealed cab, Xmax is definately a big factor on the SPL it produces.
I honestly believe, if you have never heard a horn, you dont know what youre missing.
also add to the fact that i went from 2 reflex cabs fitted with a 15 in each to having two horns with the same driver in, and i have to say, the sound quality difference was AMAZING! not to mention that you had to basically be standing right in front of the reflex cabs to feel it, where as you could stand 5-10m back and still be feeling the kick through 2dozen people.
to achieve less than 40hz outside will take BIG subwoofers. even lots of 12inch drivers will stuggle to achieve that frequency when outside. especially in a reflex cab.
best thing about horns, is they couple the driver properly, so when producing sound within the ideal frequency range, the cone movement is quite substantially damped and well controlled, so BIG Xmax, isnt a specific requirement of a horn sub. where as in a reflex/sealed cab, Xmax is definately a big factor on the SPL it produces.
I honestly believe, if you have never heard a horn, you dont know what youre missing.
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here is my sub modelled on hornresp.
note: 2subs wired in parallel on 300w between them. simulated in an open field environment.
edit: note, wave form above 120db from 35-100hz
compared to only 50-90hz on the previous simulation..
edit2: also note, 30-60 = octave 60=120= octave, so in essence, a tapped horn is capable of 2octave frequency response.
note: 2subs wired in parallel on 300w between them. simulated in an open field environment.
edit: note, wave form above 120db from 35-100hz
compared to only 50-90hz on the previous simulation..
edit2: also note, 30-60 = octave 60=120= octave, so in essence, a tapped horn is capable of 2octave frequency response.
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So maybe in the future I'll find a couple of decent 15s and make a couple of tapped horns to add a little "OOOOMPH" down below 40
Trouble is my cheap 15s are very high "Q" and verycheap besides. I made a mistake a while ago and bought a couple of reconed MTX Road Thunders from Total Recoil in Preston, look pretty but total S**** in a box
Trouble is my cheap 15s are very high "Q" and verycheap besides. I made a mistake a while ago and bought a couple of reconed MTX Road Thunders from Total Recoil in Preston, look pretty but total S**** in a box
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