Found a u.s. supplier of wide mylar 6um. Not a supplier but a guy so jump on it if someone needs some
Model Research Labs
Model Research Labs
No, it does not move as it is glued to a plastic grid for support.
The arcing issues were due to the coating used.
I have not tried a curved stator as of yet.
I may sometime.
I do prefer a flat panel though for the reasons that Roger Sanders has stated in his interview (found on you tube) and in some conversations that I had with him about the issue.
It is funny since he is the one who had invented the curved stator doesn't recommend it.
I had sourced some .5mil stuff for like $100 for 2' to 4' wide at 2000 feet (maybe it was yards) back in 2003 from a plastic company.
I think they were called GE Plastics and I still have the info buried somewhere.
If you do some calling around you will be able to find this.
2000 ft. is a lot of plastic !
The stuff I have I got from a company in ohio that went out of business in 1990 that supplied it for ultra lite aircrafts of the day and I got at least 1000 maybe 2000 feet I think and the shipping was more than the mylar was,I wish I had gotten more of it back then.
It was $6 for the mylar and $8 in shipping!
I had considered getting a Full 1 ton roll but I didn't have that kind of cash or the means to get it here or to store it, as all I needed is a few hundred feet of it to start off with.
And again Dupont didn't have a big enough demand for it here in the states to continue making it.
I had hoped that this would have changed within the last 10 years but it has not.
The only place that I know of making foils this thin including Aluminium is somewhere in Germany.
jer
The arcing issues were due to the coating used.
I have not tried a curved stator as of yet.
I may sometime.
I do prefer a flat panel though for the reasons that Roger Sanders has stated in his interview (found on you tube) and in some conversations that I had with him about the issue.
It is funny since he is the one who had invented the curved stator doesn't recommend it.
I had sourced some .5mil stuff for like $100 for 2' to 4' wide at 2000 feet (maybe it was yards) back in 2003 from a plastic company.
I think they were called GE Plastics and I still have the info buried somewhere.
If you do some calling around you will be able to find this.
2000 ft. is a lot of plastic !
The stuff I have I got from a company in ohio that went out of business in 1990 that supplied it for ultra lite aircrafts of the day and I got at least 1000 maybe 2000 feet I think and the shipping was more than the mylar was,I wish I had gotten more of it back then.
It was $6 for the mylar and $8 in shipping!
I had considered getting a Full 1 ton roll but I didn't have that kind of cash or the means to get it here or to store it, as all I needed is a few hundred feet of it to start off with.
And again Dupont didn't have a big enough demand for it here in the states to continue making it.
I had hoped that this would have changed within the last 10 years but it has not.
The only place that I know of making foils this thin including Aluminium is somewhere in Germany.
jer
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My total diagphram thicknesses ranged from .4 mil to .75mil or so using licron (original formula) as a diagphram coating on the .25mil mylar.
Licron Crystal is a much thinner coating and I was unable to measure its thickness and my measurable thickness is about .3mil after heat treatment and coating has been applied.
The difference in sound was only noticeable in a A and B comparison between the two panels and was only very slightly noticeable.
And only noticeable because of the comparison as well.
As I have said I have used monokote type material as well with great results.
The thickness of these materials range from about .5mil to as high as slightly over 1.25mil depending on the grade that you choose as some are thinner such as Ultrakote.
But most that I have tried are about .6mil to .8mil with the glue baking washed off with some acetone after the heat treatment.
But you know the drill,The thinner material is better for high frequency detail but it is a matter of subjectivity.
Many have made their panels using .5mil without any complaints, as I have as well.
My little panels used Double Powder coated window screen and I had no issues of arcing at all when first I built them.
Last year I had got them back running again after I had built a new variable bias supply and had solved the drive transfomer issues using the new power toriodal transformer technique.
And I was able to push them past their physical and electrical limits.
After seven years of deliberate weathering abuse they worked flawlessly in their original condition.
But due to the extreme weathering of many years, corrosion had started in some spots causing cracks in the coating.
So I simply cleaned them up up resealed them with clear acrylic and they are now better than new and will support a >20kv P-P across the stators without arcing.
The type of weathering that I had subjected these panels too, a normal panel in ones living room would never see, as it was quite extreme for seven years!
This has been documented in another thread.
This is not the fact with my larger panels, as they have enough paint on them.
The holes get considerably smaller with each coat of paint and with that such a thick of coating one would think that they should not arc at all!
But they do and right through the paint even at its thickest spots.
This because it is using Titanium Dioxide as a white pigment and as I had already stated is conductive at high voltages.
It was all I had at the time so I used it and yes they did work but not at a very high voltages,< 3kv to 3.5kv maximum.
My little panels where redesigned and I had taken all of these factors into consideration.
So if you require a color use your color coat as the first coat and use clear for the rest.
It has been argued the that black pigments are not as bad even though they are carbon molecules because they are encapsulated with a shell of some sort but I have not investigated this any further yet,But it seems to make sense.
But my PC coated stator was in black and it had withheld voltages in the 5kv to 10kv range right off of the bat.
It wasn't until I had built my variable supply that I was able to accurately measure this last year.
jer
Licron Crystal is a much thinner coating and I was unable to measure its thickness and my measurable thickness is about .3mil after heat treatment and coating has been applied.
The difference in sound was only noticeable in a A and B comparison between the two panels and was only very slightly noticeable.
And only noticeable because of the comparison as well.
As I have said I have used monokote type material as well with great results.
The thickness of these materials range from about .5mil to as high as slightly over 1.25mil depending on the grade that you choose as some are thinner such as Ultrakote.
But most that I have tried are about .6mil to .8mil with the glue baking washed off with some acetone after the heat treatment.
But you know the drill,The thinner material is better for high frequency detail but it is a matter of subjectivity.
Many have made their panels using .5mil without any complaints, as I have as well.
My little panels used Double Powder coated window screen and I had no issues of arcing at all when first I built them.
Last year I had got them back running again after I had built a new variable bias supply and had solved the drive transfomer issues using the new power toriodal transformer technique.
And I was able to push them past their physical and electrical limits.
After seven years of deliberate weathering abuse they worked flawlessly in their original condition.
But due to the extreme weathering of many years, corrosion had started in some spots causing cracks in the coating.
So I simply cleaned them up up resealed them with clear acrylic and they are now better than new and will support a >20kv P-P across the stators without arcing.
The type of weathering that I had subjected these panels too, a normal panel in ones living room would never see, as it was quite extreme for seven years!
This has been documented in another thread.
This is not the fact with my larger panels, as they have enough paint on them.
The holes get considerably smaller with each coat of paint and with that such a thick of coating one would think that they should not arc at all!
But they do and right through the paint even at its thickest spots.
This because it is using Titanium Dioxide as a white pigment and as I had already stated is conductive at high voltages.
It was all I had at the time so I used it and yes they did work but not at a very high voltages,< 3kv to 3.5kv maximum.
My little panels where redesigned and I had taken all of these factors into consideration.
So if you require a color use your color coat as the first coat and use clear for the rest.
It has been argued the that black pigments are not as bad even though they are carbon molecules because they are encapsulated with a shell of some sort but I have not investigated this any further yet,But it seems to make sense.
But my PC coated stator was in black and it had withheld voltages in the 5kv to 10kv range right off of the bat.
It wasn't until I had built my variable supply that I was able to accurately measure this last year.
jer
http://urlwww--torayfilms--com.rtrk.com/uploads/Datasheets/TA3A_English.pdf
Is that as thin as I think it is...??? 1 micron? Or less?
Is that as thin as I think it is...??? 1 micron? Or less?
The thinnest stuff I have is, 1.5 micron - gauge 6 or .06mil - .00006"
So far I have only found gauge 20 or .2mil on their website.
I have not seen any widths available as well as prices yet.
But they do have a very versatile range of types available with different types of coatings as well.
Although I haven't had known any issues with the licron type products as of yet,some of these coatings my help with the permanent bonding of the conductive coating.
I am searching to see if they have a film in the .5mil or less range that has a high resistance conductive coating already on it.
in my search back in 2003 there weren't that many company's that carried such flim's.
Chemplex was one of the few and was nice enough to send me a catalog as well as some samples,they were quite affordable.
I have several diffrent ones including some Kapton in which I think is 1 mil and I could only find it as thin as .5 mil as well as it is quite costly.
I was considering its use as automotive drivers at the time in order to withstand the heat that gets generated inside a car on a hot day and not change its tension (much).
These thin films are generaly used in electron microscopy so it is hard to find any that are wider than 3".
Good find !!!
jer
So far I have only found gauge 20 or .2mil on their website.
I have not seen any widths available as well as prices yet.
But they do have a very versatile range of types available with different types of coatings as well.
Although I haven't had known any issues with the licron type products as of yet,some of these coatings my help with the permanent bonding of the conductive coating.
I am searching to see if they have a film in the .5mil or less range that has a high resistance conductive coating already on it.
in my search back in 2003 there weren't that many company's that carried such flim's.
Chemplex was one of the few and was nice enough to send me a catalog as well as some samples,they were quite affordable.
I have several diffrent ones including some Kapton in which I think is 1 mil and I could only find it as thin as .5 mil as well as it is quite costly.
I was considering its use as automotive drivers at the time in order to withstand the heat that gets generated inside a car on a hot day and not change its tension (much).
These thin films are generaly used in electron microscopy so it is hard to find any that are wider than 3".
Good find !!!
jer
Datasheets
Click on the bottom link.... this is an anti static very thin film... unless i am reading it wrong
Click on the bottom link.... this is an anti static very thin film... unless i am reading it wrong
Excellent!!!
The resistance is a bit low according to what I have read about the constant charge concept,But I suspect that it would definitely work.
I just need to find some prices and/or a small quantity source or maybe just a decent size sample will do just to see if it will work.
Materials like that weren't readily available a short time ago.
Super !!!!
jer
P.S. according to the data sheet their current film looks more suitable if it can be had in 50 gauge or less ,but they don't give a model number.Boy I am really excited now as licron is not exactly cheap at about $28 to $50 a can,not to mention the hassle of applying a consistent coating although it is not hard to do.
data sheet says 150 gauge
The resistance is a bit low according to what I have read about the constant charge concept,But I suspect that it would definitely work.
I just need to find some prices and/or a small quantity source or maybe just a decent size sample will do just to see if it will work.
Materials like that weren't readily available a short time ago.
Super !!!!
jer
P.S. according to the data sheet their current film looks more suitable if it can be had in 50 gauge or less ,but they don't give a model number.Boy I am really excited now as licron is not exactly cheap at about $28 to $50 a can,not to mention the hassle of applying a consistent coating although it is not hard to do.
data sheet says 150 gauge
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Let me know. If it is as wide and as thin as they seem to imply 1 micron or less I would be interested in a small roll if the price is not insane. But how important is the heat shrinkage factor of these films? I don't know what the heat shrinkage factor of the 6 micron stuff coming to me... I will be able to wrap sandwiches for years.
DuPont Teijin Films - USA - Electronics & Electrical Components
Look at distributors link.... this is also very thin film... might be metalized might not be...
Look at distributors link.... this is also very thin film... might be metalized might not be...
Yes ,Mike, it is possible and would be worth investigating as this company is very new to me so I will try to get a hold of them in the next few days.
As gauge 150 is 1.5mil, It is quite heavy but this would still work for some bass panels and possibly pretty good midrange as well with only a slight decrease of performance on the high end.
My past experience has proved a slight boost in the high Eq solves that, since I can't hear much above 17khz anyhow, and, would still outperform your average dynamic driver.
When I contact them I will see exactly what they have to offer and explain our needs to them as they seem to be the type of company that just might invest in a product for our needs to add to there repertoire by the looks of reading their profile.
Since the already have the product, but it needs to be thinner for our needs.
jer
As gauge 150 is 1.5mil, It is quite heavy but this would still work for some bass panels and possibly pretty good midrange as well with only a slight decrease of performance on the high end.
My past experience has proved a slight boost in the high Eq solves that, since I can't hear much above 17khz anyhow, and, would still outperform your average dynamic driver.
When I contact them I will see exactly what they have to offer and explain our needs to them as they seem to be the type of company that just might invest in a product for our needs to add to there repertoire by the looks of reading their profile.
Since the already have the product, but it needs to be thinner for our needs.
jer
Yes ,This is the stuff to use but it is very difficult to source any wider than a few inches at .25mil or thinner.
I have been only able to find this stuff in .5mil thicknesses and was similar or the same as the stuff I was going to get back in 2004 for a BIG roll for $100.
jer
Mike Woodhouse - Free Flight Supplies
Then click on LW coverings on the left.... quite a few lightweight stuff
Then click on LW coverings on the left.... quite a few lightweight stuff
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