Hi all,
thanks for your comments, I feel we crossed a step;
Somebody didn't understand why I wanted to use a 10" in a 2-way: quite simple: to get good bass! For me less moving parts displacements and large cone area are the key in bass range, much more than other parameters; I'm talking here about bass, not sub-bass (but it's almost the same matter, haha).
So why a 2-way and not a 3? Because much more easier to build such a filter with less components, thus cheaper. Another consideration: I believe that accuracy in lowmid and mid comes more from dynamic and absence of box resonancies than from the technical features of the driver; to reach this target, I didn't want to make the x-over in this range and I will try to use a quasi spherical shape ended with an exponential vent (a matter of wave propagation, escaping the box through the vent), without (I hope so) any or very less damping material to keep a high QES: that's why I want to use a 45° leaned mounting for the woofer, allowing to tune the port in the height of the enclosure and not in its deepness.
I chose the CA26 mainly for its 2" VC and its relatively small VC inductance (for a 10" at this price).
But:
1) Even if a wave guide for a conventional tweeter theorically could work well, I'm, at the moment, not sure this will give an untiring uppermid. But I agree with the fact that i.e. a Seas 27 doesn't have huge distortions at 1.5khz and even at lower frequencies. In a previous speaker I used a revelator tweeter (D2905/990000) from 2khz and it didn't sound very relaxed.
2) To get relatively extanded bass, I have to use the CA26 in approximately 50 liters + the outer exponential vent...with the spherical shape, the speaker will be very...fat...and the WAF will certainly not be very acceptable.
So, at the moment, I will think a little more about this project which was more about a loading idea than about how to match a 10" with a tweeter; but your advices about distortions issues in upper-midrange and kinds of tweeters were very appreciated. If somebody wants to talk about unresonant loading ideas, I would appreciate your comments.
Sorry for my bad english/american.
thanks for your comments, I feel we crossed a step;
Somebody didn't understand why I wanted to use a 10" in a 2-way: quite simple: to get good bass! For me less moving parts displacements and large cone area are the key in bass range, much more than other parameters; I'm talking here about bass, not sub-bass (but it's almost the same matter, haha).
So why a 2-way and not a 3? Because much more easier to build such a filter with less components, thus cheaper. Another consideration: I believe that accuracy in lowmid and mid comes more from dynamic and absence of box resonancies than from the technical features of the driver; to reach this target, I didn't want to make the x-over in this range and I will try to use a quasi spherical shape ended with an exponential vent (a matter of wave propagation, escaping the box through the vent), without (I hope so) any or very less damping material to keep a high QES: that's why I want to use a 45° leaned mounting for the woofer, allowing to tune the port in the height of the enclosure and not in its deepness.
I chose the CA26 mainly for its 2" VC and its relatively small VC inductance (for a 10" at this price).
But:
1) Even if a wave guide for a conventional tweeter theorically could work well, I'm, at the moment, not sure this will give an untiring uppermid. But I agree with the fact that i.e. a Seas 27 doesn't have huge distortions at 1.5khz and even at lower frequencies. In a previous speaker I used a revelator tweeter (D2905/990000) from 2khz and it didn't sound very relaxed.
2) To get relatively extanded bass, I have to use the CA26 in approximately 50 liters + the outer exponential vent...with the spherical shape, the speaker will be very...fat...and the WAF will certainly not be very acceptable.
So, at the moment, I will think a little more about this project which was more about a loading idea than about how to match a 10" with a tweeter; but your advices about distortions issues in upper-midrange and kinds of tweeters were very appreciated. If somebody wants to talk about unresonant loading ideas, I would appreciate your comments.
Sorry for my bad english/american.
Just a small somewhat crazy idea: You could perhaps use a small Tangband 2 inch ‘fullrange’ as a tweeter. For instance a W2-800SF. It extends really well. You would have some inconsistencies in dispersion, but perhaps you wouldn’t care much.
I have some pair of this tiny driver and the more I look at it the more I imagine it as a tweeter!;-))
I have some pair of this tiny driver and the more I look at it the more I imagine it as a tweeter!;-))
hey crazyhub
if you are not scared about price, the jordan JXR6 looks like a worthy alternative to conventionnal tweeter. I don't know but don't think you would make any HF compromises with this driver, this according only to the frequency response.
The neo8 could be very good if you are able to equalize it. also i heard that the neo 3 could be crossed low, but i don't know how low you could cross it.
noah katz, it seems like you have a lot of interrest in waveguides lately. As i know that you have a pretty good theoretical background, i would be happy to share my thoughts with you as i want to use a big ( 12"-20") one in my next system, and did a lot of research about them lately. a thread i did lately is here, with my idea of project with Waveguide loading.
if you are not scared about price, the jordan JXR6 looks like a worthy alternative to conventionnal tweeter. I don't know but don't think you would make any HF compromises with this driver, this according only to the frequency response.
The neo8 could be very good if you are able to equalize it. also i heard that the neo 3 could be crossed low, but i don't know how low you could cross it.
noah katz, it seems like you have a lot of interrest in waveguides lately. As i know that you have a pretty good theoretical background, i would be happy to share my thoughts with you as i want to use a big ( 12"-20") one in my next system, and did a lot of research about them lately. a thread i did lately is here, with my idea of project with Waveguide loading.
kifeinthesink said:
The problem with the HiVi and most other full range drivers is they are grossly inefficient compared to a tweeter.
crazyhub - Don't forget the impact the baffle will have on the reponse of the 10" woofer. You will probaby see a 4-6db peak around 600-1000hz, with a 1 - 2 db drop off after that. If you don't compensate for this the speaker will sound harsh.
For my current project I plan on using a very narrow baffle, so the peak response is above the crossover frequency. This will extend the response of the woofer above the xover frequency and give me free baffle step compensation.
Dan
from the beginning and didn’t realize that the fullrange-tweeter idea was already mentioned by cotdtowdi said:
This is something I find aggravating about the w3-871s. It's a relief to switch to some fe-103s I have just to hear some volume, even though it doesn't sound as nice.
That said, the w3-871s is rated at about 87db which is fairly similar to alot of mids. Im not sure about the HiVi. If you look at the fostex drivers efficiency is no longer a problem. I think the Fostex fe103 (mines the radioshack version which is not quite as good) is about 92db and some of the more efficient drivers are around 95db. Madisound has the fe89 on sale for $20.
Hmmmmmmmm...............
Damn it, now you guys have got me thinking. There's already more projects then i have the time or money to do.
By the way, whoever put up the link to that german site with the full range and the large woofer, that is one sexy looking speaker. Thanks for the link.
Hi all,
All IMHO:
Thallis: tangbang W2-800SF:
Owdi:
Nemophyle (salut)
:
Noah katz:
So, to summarize:
I guess it's possible to manage such a 10" with a conventional (real) tweeter by waveguided it or by choosing a high-end type (huge x-max and very steep x-over) or by choosing an uppermid tweeter such as little fullrange ones. However, the size of the speaker would be too large with the loading principle I want to try. So I will go to a 8" with a conventional tweeter. For those who are interested, I am going to post a thread about this matter, named "loading principle- waves propagation issues".
Thanks again for your thoughts.
All IMHO:
Thallis: tangbang W2-800SF:
I agree...in a first view all the features let me guess it would perform well in the uppermid but not really in the top range because of its 1gr mms and break-up modes from 12 to 20kz; also, its peak to peak linear displacement (1mm x-max) isn't greater than conventional true tweeters. I want a true tweeter with a smooth extanded responce.
Owdi:
Yes, good advice; As you says, it's a matter of baffle step compensation and does occur with all the midwoofers, whatever their sizes; I will manage with the series inductor.
Assuming that the peak response is only due to baffle step, I don't see the advantage of being bellow or above the x-over frequency. In any case you have to manage this problem with the x-over in the same manner.
Nemophyle (salut)
:I'm lazy...and want to use the less components...and not make trials about baffle loadings.
No tecnical features allowing to believe this. The Neo8 certainly yes, the Neo3, not.
Noah katz:
Seams to be right but only because it helps the x-over in the matter of directivity lobes; About the x-over frequency, the problem is the same than with baffle step compensation and only related to this fr value. Waveguide has to be approximately 8" diameter to load 800-1000hz and the size of the speaker would even more increase.
So, to summarize:
I guess it's possible to manage such a 10" with a conventional (real) tweeter by waveguided it or by choosing a high-end type (huge x-max and very steep x-over) or by choosing an uppermid tweeter such as little fullrange ones. However, the size of the speaker would be too large with the loading principle I want to try. So I will go to a 8" with a conventional tweeter. For those who are interested, I am going to post a thread about this matter, named "loading principle- waves propagation issues".
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Well, this tagband isn’t the best example perhaps, but don’t forget that is has more than 2,5 times the effective cone surface of a 1-inch dome, and I also think that most domes don’t come really close to this 1mm excursion. It sure can produce lower frequencies from any tweeter out there, and also take the wattage required to go deeper – after all it is a ‘fullrange’.
But, yes, its freq response isn’t a’ class. Still not very bad though, I’ve seen quite many ‘good’ tweeters measure worse ;-))
Some day I'll give it a try it in a similar configuration.
But, yes, its freq response isn’t a’ class. Still not very bad though, I’ve seen quite many ‘good’ tweeters measure worse ;-))
Some day I'll give it a try it in a similar configuration.
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I'm going to to to a simular project, one Seas CA26RFX 10" and a NE08 midrange/tweeter. X-over will be 4th order LR, electronic so the 12kHz notch should be possible to compensate. Planning to cross at about 7-800 Hz.
I haven't decided if I'm going to make it a bass reflex or sealed. Thats a question about fast bass or demanding high volume.
Time will show, in perhaps 2 months time.
I haven't decided if I'm going to make it a bass reflex or sealed. Thats a question about fast bass or demanding high volume.
Time will show, in perhaps 2 months time.
I dont think that 10" will sound good without a notch, and even so it might not be very good above 500hz
And even a good 8" woofer might not do it either
If you want good highs from big drivers you will have to let go of much of the bass
And a 1" tweeter down to 1khz .... I dont believe it
But you might get it down to 1.5khz without too much distortion
Either way you are pushing the limits, at both ends
At the moment I am testing a cheap 12" (Mivoc AW3000), its surely not state of the art, but surprisingly good and very well behaved - crossed to a good little fullrange might work wonders or maybe a little widerange with a supertweeter - but this 12" might only be available in EU
And even a good 8" woofer might not do it either
If you want good highs from big drivers you will have to let go of much of the bass
And a 1" tweeter down to 1khz .... I dont believe it
But you might get it down to 1.5khz without too much distortion
Either way you are pushing the limits, at both ends
At the moment I am testing a cheap 12" (Mivoc AW3000), its surely not state of the art, but surprisingly good and very well behaved - crossed to a good little fullrange might work wonders or maybe a little widerange with a supertweeter - but this 12" might only be available in EU
The NE08 is not a 1" tweeter. Its a "planar-magnetic (ribbon) transducer" from www.bgcorp.com. Area is roughly approximated 100x40mm=40cm². Max stroke is not given in the datasheet.
Effective frequency range is claimed to be 200Hz-20kHz, but with a peak around 12kHz. Recommended X-over is >500Hz though.
But, yes I'm still feeling that i'm pushing the limits a bit if I want high soundpressure.
Effective frequency range is claimed to be 200Hz-20kHz, but with a peak around 12kHz. Recommended X-over is >500Hz though.
But, yes I'm still feeling that i'm pushing the limits a bit if I want high soundpressure.
My reply was more in line with the debate whether a 1" tweeter in a waveguide can be used down to 1khz
I have been through the same thoughts about using a 10" with a tweeter in a simple 2way with good bass
And I also ended up considering the NEO-8, and even with a 12"
But I left the idea and decided on a classical 3way with 12"/5" and tweeter
I would say that in general when pushing the limits you will have know the drivers from practical use, how it really performs in real life
Btw.... one driver I would consider with very low xo is the EMMINENSE BETA 12 or 12LT .....it will give you high sensitivity and goes "pretty low"..... in EU you can get from Strassacker
I have been through the same thoughts about using a 10" with a tweeter in a simple 2way with good bass
And I also ended up considering the NEO-8, and even with a 12"
But I left the idea and decided on a classical 3way with 12"/5" and tweeter
I would say that in general when pushing the limits you will have know the drivers from practical use, how it really performs in real life
Btw.... one driver I would consider with very low xo is the EMMINENSE BETA 12 or 12LT .....it will give you high sensitivity and goes "pretty low"..... in EU you can get from Strassacker
Agree about the practical part, but you need to try to know. But I spoke to a speaker constructor about taking the Seas that high, and he ment that Seas' data in general were usable.
And the drivers are already bought at bargain prices 487NOK for the NE08 and 798NOK for the Seas Two of each. Normal price is 975,- and 1410,- So it is becoming a budget project.
I might end up with a system that is ment for high quality rather then high soundpressure. That means sealed enclosure, xover maybe as low as 500-600Hz and Linwitz biquad filter to compensate for the falling efficiency for the enc. Time will show....
And the drivers are already bought at bargain prices
487NOK for the NE08 and 798NOK for the Seas Two of each. Normal price is 975,- and 1410,- So it is becoming a budget project.I might end up with a system that is ment for high quality rather then high soundpressure. That means sealed enclosure, xover maybe as low as 500-600Hz and Linwitz biquad filter to compensate for the falling efficiency for the enc. Time will show....
somethirty years ago, Arrow Audio in NYC introduced their own brand of speakers. (anybody rememeber BH speakers, named for Arrow's then CEO who went by the nickname of 'Big Harrold'). They had various two and three way designs, and I do remember two way designs using 10" and 12"(!) woofers with cone type tweeters. They sounded ok if you didn't know any better. (then again, the NYC sound room sucked).
I posted a similar thread on another forum after being inspired by my old Advent 4002 10" two-ways. Granted, my sealed Advents don't dig lower then a modern quality vented 6.5" but they have a very strong and full presence down low. I believe they are crossed over @ 2500 Hz.
I really like the idea of combining an extended range driver with a bass section - I may try that soon!
I really like the idea of combining an extended range driver with a bass section - I may try that soon!
Just found this interesting 10"
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-495&ctab=2#Tabs
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-495&ctab=2#Tabs
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2 way with a 10" woofer con't
WAD dynaco A25 update kit...
have a look there. I am suprised that planet10 and others didn't point ya there..
WAD dynaco A25 update kit...
have a look there. I am suprised that planet10 and others didn't point ya there..
Re: 2 way with a 10" woofer con't
Well Scott & I did do a classic Radford/IMF style TL for it (and since the same company owns WD & the Radford name, it is being refered to as a modern day Radford.
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2800
dave
Nanook said:
Well Scott & I did do a classic Radford/IMF style TL for it (and since the same company owns WD & the Radford name, it is being refered to as a modern day Radford.
http://wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2800
dave
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