Good, then i think i start to get the hang of this! 
I also did notice a significant improvement in my speakers performance when i moved to this apartment (in July). It is actually really good, I am not exactly sure why though. Wood floor, wood ceiling, two big windows opposite the speakers.. But if it works xD
Aha.. that part i may still need to read some more about..
I also did notice a significant improvement in my speakers performance when i moved to this apartment (in July). It is actually really good, I am not exactly sure why though. Wood floor, wood ceiling, two big windows opposite the speakers.. But if it works xD
Aha.. that part i may still need to read some more about..
Well, that wiggle right in the 2-4 Khz is not good - But without facets it probably wont get any better.
elagils example also show how the centered tweeter, performs worse on axis than off axis. The opposite is generally true if you off-set the tweeter: best performance on axis. IMO it is better to have it centered, because the dispersion will be the same on both sides of the speaker. Good thing is - I think it will be MUCH better when you play around with the facets. Also close to on axis!
elagils example also show how the centered tweeter, performs worse on axis than off axis. The opposite is generally true if you off-set the tweeter: best performance on axis. IMO it is better to have it centered, because the dispersion will be the same on both sides of the speaker. Good thing is - I think it will be MUCH better when you play around with the facets. Also close to on axis!
Looks good. Also when the on/off axis behaviour is very consistent it opens the possibility to play around flatten the response. For instance the little bump around 3500 Hz. Be careful EQ'ing to much though. Some may actually like a little bump here and there. The freedom of DSP luckily makes this easy to play with. IMO getting the basic right from the start and then "less is more" from there yields the best result.
It can be argued if the raise in the response of the tweeter around 16 khz is something that adds air to the sound. I would probably try notching it out and see if you can hear a difference. My tweeters have a raise in response around 12 Khz and on bright recordings it is too much to my taste. For instance many B&W speakers has a raise in response past 10 Khz. I dont like it...It can be very challenging to right hit home run on the right balance. Here different kind of crossovers also play a major role ue: different slopes, typology. My experience is that straight LR24 gives a less free a open soundfield but with nice attack where a LR12 is a little more relaxed and more open. Some would say natural.
But I guess you have plenty work before actual "final" crossover. I think your path is on the very right track!
It can be argued if the raise in the response of the tweeter around 16 khz is something that adds air to the sound. I would probably try notching it out and see if you can hear a difference. My tweeters have a raise in response around 12 Khz and on bright recordings it is too much to my taste. For instance many B&W speakers has a raise in response past 10 Khz. I dont like it...It can be very challenging to right hit home run on the right balance. Here different kind of crossovers also play a major role ue: different slopes, typology. My experience is that straight LR24 gives a less free a open soundfield but with nice attack where a LR12 is a little more relaxed and more open. Some would say natural.
But I guess you have plenty work before actual "final" crossover. I think your path is on the very right track!
Like you say, for now I just needed to know what I was doing to do the tests needed to freeze my design. Then once I have my new cabinets build, then I can try all the different crossover types, and play around with EQ and so on. I don't really care to make the perfect crossover for these speakers as they have a very limited lifetime from now xD
BUT all inputs and golden tips are ALWAYS welcome! I will need them later
BUT all inputs and golden tips are ALWAYS welcome! I will need them later
Yesterday I tried to block the port of my old speakers. I just removed the port and mounted a wooden plate over the port with foam gaskets around it. The graph shows a ungated a unsmoothed near field measurement of the woofer (tweeter is also playing). The red graph is how it looked like with the port. The blue graph is with the port blocked. Now i am wondering why the ported version has this dip? is it because I do not measure the port output in a near field measurement? The woofer isn't supposed to have a very big output at port resonance is it?
SO i guess it is correct?
Or?
SO i guess it is correct?
Or?
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I also tried to reduce the volume from 22.2 l to 15.6 l by putting 13 0.5l bottles filled with water into the cabinet.
The first graph shows a near field measurement of the woofer. Green is the blocked port and 22l. Red is blocked port with volume reduced to 15.6l.
The second graph is 1 m measurement of the woofer only. Blue is the original ported enclosure. Red is the sealed reduced 15.6l.
The first graph shows a near field measurement of the woofer. Green is the blocked port and 22l. Red is blocked port with volume reduced to 15.6l.
The second graph is 1 m measurement of the woofer only. Blue is the original ported enclosure. Red is the sealed reduced 15.6l.
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I also tried to boost the bass a little. Before I made these "Bass boost" tests I modeled the 15.6 l single woofer in WinISD. I then increased the power input until the 6mm x-max was reached - 10w ish. I then changed the soft-clip in the FA123 to 5W just to protect my woofer. I am surprised how loud it plays even with this 5W limit.. Or am I misunderstanding how this soft-clip works ?
How does it sound if this limit is reached?
I did the "boosts" by adding a high shelf reducing everything above 40hz by -7db and -12 db and then adding a corresponding gain to the woofer channel.
The first image show near field measurements of the woofer with these "bass boosts". Green is no boost, purple is 7db "boost" and red is 12db "boost".
The second and third image shows the impulse and step response of the woofer in near field measurements. The green one is the reduced 15.6l and no boost. The red one is with the 12db boost.
Before i comment on the overall sound of this configuration i would really like to hear what do you people think of these graphs! ??
How does it sound if this limit is reached?
I did the "boosts" by adding a high shelf reducing everything above 40hz by -7db and -12 db and then adding a corresponding gain to the woofer channel.
The first image show near field measurements of the woofer with these "bass boosts". Green is no boost, purple is 7db "boost" and red is 12db "boost".
The second and third image shows the impulse and step response of the woofer in near field measurements. The green one is the reduced 15.6l and no boost. The red one is with the 12db boost.
Before i comment on the overall sound of this configuration i would really like to hear what do you people think of these graphs!
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Check also distrotion, the low end boost makes a challenge!
Distortion must be sweeped with at least 90, preferably 95dB at 1m distance. Put the mic on the foor for this measurement and use a slow sweep. If there is a peak in distortion, it might be something rattling inside the cab or in the room. Then play sine wave of said problematic frequency to identify source of distortion!
Check cone movement visually during the sweep too!
You will need (music) listening tests in the room, with both speakers playing to set final bass eq and level to suit your taste!
Distortion must be sweeped with at least 90, preferably 95dB at 1m distance. Put the mic on the foor for this measurement and use a slow sweep. If there is a peak in distortion, it might be something rattling inside the cab or in the room. Then play sine wave of said problematic frequency to identify source of distortion!
Check cone movement visually during the sweep too!
You will need (music) listening tests in the room, with both speakers playing to set final bass eq and level to suit your taste!
That's correct. Around the tuning frequency, the port dominates & the woofer's movement is reduced. Below tuning, of course, the woofer's excursion increases rapidly. IOW, the port works across a fairly narrow bandpass.
Stereophile's latest speaker review shows this well.
Conclusion of tests and funeral
Hello everyone!
Long story short - this plan turned out to be destined to fail.
Some of you have questioned the use of a 18W in a sealed enclosure of 15L from the beginning. I am glad you did, because it made me do thorough testing which I otherwise wouldn’t have done.
I have tried both a two way solution with the 18W and my tweeter in both 22L and 15L, I also tried the same two sizes in a 3-way with the 12M added in its own cabinet on top of the old ones (see the first picture). The 12M cabinet was build exactly like in my full design - that part worked at least.
Even though the measurements look good in both 22 and 15l I can clearly hear a difference. Not in the lowest frequencies bot vocals. They somehow sound congested with the woofer in 15l even with the 12M added. It sounds really good in 22L though!
I am seriously impressed with the bass performance one of these bad boys (18W) can deliver with some DSP magic. BUT, 1 does not play loud enough and 2 also wouldn’t. I think 4 would, but that would require 44L for the two woofers in each speaker.. If I ever were to build speakers of that size then I would not use 7” for bass…
So the conclusion is, the 18W cannot deliver what I want in a speaker the size I want.. I wanted to rebuild these speakers because I new the 18W deserved better so I won’t put them in too small a box again! So I am going to sell my 18W and 12M and start over with the driver choices to get what I need.. Even though it hurts, L
I am sorry that this project didn’t get anywhere now that so many of you have helped me so much in the process! However, I will still build new speakers, and from listening to you guys I got smarter! I will start from scratch in a new thread, since the new project is going to have nothing to do with revelators.
You can find this thread here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/327489-active-3-floor-stander-punch.html#post5547503
Again, thank you so much for your help!
Hello everyone!
Long story short - this plan turned out to be destined to fail.
Some of you have questioned the use of a 18W in a sealed enclosure of 15L from the beginning. I am glad you did, because it made me do thorough testing which I otherwise wouldn’t have done.
I have tried both a two way solution with the 18W and my tweeter in both 22L and 15L, I also tried the same two sizes in a 3-way with the 12M added in its own cabinet on top of the old ones (see the first picture). The 12M cabinet was build exactly like in my full design - that part worked at least
.Even though the measurements look good in both 22 and 15l I can clearly hear a difference. Not in the lowest frequencies bot vocals. They somehow sound congested with the woofer in 15l even with the 12M added. It sounds really good in 22L though!
I am seriously impressed with the bass performance one of these bad boys (18W) can deliver with some DSP magic. BUT, 1 does not play loud enough and 2 also wouldn’t. I think 4 would, but that would require 44L for the two woofers in each speaker.. If I ever were to build speakers of that size then I would not use 7” for bass…
So the conclusion is, the 18W cannot deliver what I want in a speaker the size I want.. I wanted to rebuild these speakers because I new the 18W deserved better so I won’t put them in too small a box again! So I am going to sell my 18W and 12M and start over with the driver choices to get what I need.. Even though it hurts, L
I am sorry that this project didn’t get anywhere now that so many of you have helped me so much in the process! However, I will still build new speakers, and from listening to you guys I got smarter! I will start from scratch in a new thread, since the new project is going to have nothing to do with revelators.
You can find this thread here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/327489-active-3-floor-stander-punch.html#post5547503
Again, thank you so much for your help!
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