I've been so blessed in this organ project that we didn't get the dueling committees plugging up the progress.
I feel your pain. And I smile about it because it is so typical of the church environment so abundant around the World.
Bach On
I've been racking my puny brain on how to test the speakers. The issue is the HC12s. I anticipate that the 15 inch woofers in those boxes will get limited use while playing ranks from the two manuals. The one exception is a 16 foot reed stop for the Swell manual. One pair of speakers will do the reeds.
Until the Artisan Sound Module is actually installed, it looked like it would be tough to take those woofers out of the mix so I could get a sense of how well the two bass boxes are doing. I could remove the 15 inch woofers and disconnect one of the terminals. But that was going to be a pain.
Then I thought of this. The Crown XLS1000s have a crossover. I'm not planning to use the crossover circuitry when the sound module is installed. But I could temporarily use it and set the amps for Highpass during testing. That would take the woofers pretty much out of the mix.
I've been using 96 Hz. for testing the bass boxes as the crossover point. I could use the same crossover point for the HC12s.
It won't be exact, but it should allow me to get a better sense of the potential balance of the HC12s with the bass boxes. And better measure how the sound is projecting out into the Sanctuary.
Anyone see big issues with this?
Bach On
Until the Artisan Sound Module is actually installed, it looked like it would be tough to take those woofers out of the mix so I could get a sense of how well the two bass boxes are doing. I could remove the 15 inch woofers and disconnect one of the terminals. But that was going to be a pain.
Then I thought of this. The Crown XLS1000s have a crossover. I'm not planning to use the crossover circuitry when the sound module is installed. But I could temporarily use it and set the amps for Highpass during testing. That would take the woofers pretty much out of the mix.
I've been using 96 Hz. for testing the bass boxes as the crossover point. I could use the same crossover point for the HC12s.
It won't be exact, but it should allow me to get a better sense of the potential balance of the HC12s with the bass boxes. And better measure how the sound is projecting out into the Sanctuary.
Anyone see big issues with this?
Bach On
I have a late 1970's vintage BSR equalizer. It has a LED "scope" that indicates content according to frequency ranges. It accepts a mike input so you to see the measured content from the speakers.
I'll only be using the Crossover system on those HC12s during initial testing. I think this older device will let me see what is playing. Since my EMM-6 requires Phantom Power, I'll use the little ART pre-amp to power the mike and feed that to the equalizer. Not a perfect setup, of course, but it should give me some general indication of what the HC12s are playing.
Best I can do. I'm not going to buy a O-scope just for this - new or used.
At that point I'll start adding the bass speakers into the mix to see if they are adequately carrying their part of the load.
BO
I'll only be using the Crossover system on those HC12s during initial testing. I think this older device will let me see what is playing. Since my EMM-6 requires Phantom Power, I'll use the little ART pre-amp to power the mike and feed that to the equalizer. Not a perfect setup, of course, but it should give me some general indication of what the HC12s are playing.
Best I can do. I'm not going to buy a O-scope just for this - new or used.
At that point I'll start adding the bass speakers into the mix to see if they are adequately carrying their part of the load.
BO
Hi Bach On,
Your method for evaluating the HC12s (Posts #1062/1065) should work just fine.
Have you found the time to change the capacitors in the preamp? (Shouldn't make a difference for anythings but the lowest lows.)
Again, 3rd octave warble tones would be great to evaluate this. Play the tone(s), measure the speaker input voltage, check the level w/ a mike.
Regards,
P.S.: I second andyr's remark.
Your method for evaluating the HC12s (Posts #1062/1065) should work just fine.
Have you found the time to change the capacitors in the preamp? (Shouldn't make a difference for anythings but the lowest lows.)
Again, 3rd octave warble tones would be great to evaluate this. Play the tone(s), measure the speaker input voltage, check the level w/ a mike.
Regards,
P.S.: I second andyr's remark.
The BSR may be too crude and generally too "consumer grade" for your purposes, except maybe to get a loose big picture.
All you need to see any function I can think of is REW. Including the nice RTA pictures using whatever-the-feed or pink noise which will tell you a lot. BSR won't be diagnostic at the best.
Ben
Ben
You have my greatest respect, Bach On - for 2 reasons:
1. Taking on this project, and
2. Succeeding so well.
Andy
Andy,
I'm not yet sure wh ether we have succeeded. I'm hopeful. Do you have sound out your way?
Bach On
Thanks. You and Andy are optimists. I hope it proves out.
I have it sitting on my work bench. I rechecked and marked the offending caps - and got the polarity correctly marked. Just got a solder sucker I'd ordered three weeks ago. Guess it got caught in a standoff in the US House or Senate, or maybe it came via Iran.
So I was ready to get 'r done. But my wife came up with some new honey do projects that absolutely must be done or the globe would stop spinning and pitiful puppies in peril would perish because my lack of prompt action.
She had company coming that she wanted to impress. She suddenly announced that the borders by the sidewalk by which they would arrive looked terrible. Nothing would satisfy her except that I absolutely must go out in 94 degree F weather (humidity above 70%) and get that area looking substantially better. And the front porch also had to be cleared, pressure washed and made more presentable. So I busted my asp and got it ready for the meeting of the Mayberry Ladies Auxillary. Then get this - I woke up this morning to find a note by the coffee pot saying her company couldn't come today because one of the older members was sick.
I WILL get the caps changed ASAP.
BO
** Have I mentioned that I love my wife? 40 years this coming December.
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Progress Report
I got two of the HC12s and the twin Dayton box connected last night. I decided to go ahead and use the Allen Presence Presenters. That allowed me to put the PP boxes around the pipe chamber AND changed the circuit from 8 to 4 ohms - thus, we got more output from the amp. Did no measurements other than with my ears. The bass from the Dayton box is barely adequate. I wonder if changing out the two Dayton drivers for two HT18s would have improved this? I anticipate the situation will become even more of an issue when I get all six HC12s online. With those big Bourdon pipes gone, the area is much more open. I'd say the Dayton woofers and the first pair of HC12s are about 5 or 6 feet from the shades. Not surprisingly, the sound level in the pipe chamber is much greater than out beyond the shades. It is louder at the organ and in the choir loft than out in the pews.
The SPL out in the Sanctuary was pretty good - especially after I put the PP speakers in the mix. But the lowest sounds don't produce much chest thumping and floor rumbling effect. I heard no sympathetic vibrations at anytime.
I still have to get the Triangular Box going. I'm still hopeful it will make a big difference. I need to get the top part of the box attached - hopefully sometime tonight. I do suspect that will significantly improve the low end. Too, all of this is with the lower input from a CD player into the amps using RCA patch cables. That's more motivation to get those caps changed out on the pre-amp to increase the bass input voltage.
I'm running the air conditioning, but it's still hot up in the pipe chamber. But I'm trying to pace myself. It's work, but it's also good to see things coming together.
BO
I got two of the HC12s and the twin Dayton box connected last night. I decided to go ahead and use the Allen Presence Presenters. That allowed me to put the PP boxes around the pipe chamber AND changed the circuit from 8 to 4 ohms - thus, we got more output from the amp. Did no measurements other than with my ears. The bass from the Dayton box is barely adequate. I wonder if changing out the two Dayton drivers for two HT18s would have improved this? I anticipate the situation will become even more of an issue when I get all six HC12s online. With those big Bourdon pipes gone, the area is much more open. I'd say the Dayton woofers and the first pair of HC12s are about 5 or 6 feet from the shades. Not surprisingly, the sound level in the pipe chamber is much greater than out beyond the shades. It is louder at the organ and in the choir loft than out in the pews.
The SPL out in the Sanctuary was pretty good - especially after I put the PP speakers in the mix. But the lowest sounds don't produce much chest thumping and floor rumbling effect. I heard no sympathetic vibrations at anytime.
I still have to get the Triangular Box going. I'm still hopeful it will make a big difference. I need to get the top part of the box attached - hopefully sometime tonight. I do suspect that will significantly improve the low end. Too, all of this is with the lower input from a CD player into the amps using RCA patch cables. That's more motivation to get those caps changed out on the pre-amp to increase the bass input voltage.
I'm running the air conditioning, but it's still hot up in the pipe chamber. But I'm trying to pace myself. It's work, but it's also good to see things coming together.
BO
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Hi Bach On,
Post #1071: "...put the PP boxes around the pipe chamber AND changed the circuit from 8 to 4 ohms..."
The circuit impedance will only change in in range that is not affected by the series capacitor inside the PP boxes. So it will not have much influence on the loading of the amplifier, as the power consumption in that upper range is much smaller to begin with.
Post #1071: "...The bass from the Dayton box is barely adequate. I wonder if changing out the two Dayton drivers for two HT18s would have improved this?..."
The box is too small for dual SI HT18 drivers. So is the triangular corner box. I'll attach four Hornresp SPL windows, 2 w/ a modified JAG tweak (using only Rg=2Ohm) and 2 w/o tweak.
From the SPL charts the single 385 w/ tweak has the flattest response; the single 385 w/o tweak has a response peak @ 16Hz. Both of these single 385 versions should work for you. Given the unknown nature of the chamber/auditorium response I might try removing one of the 385s, and closing the hole. It should give an overall flatter response. With the bigger and longer port at least now the box tuning looks correct, but you will loose the 6dB gain in the middle and upper bass that comes from the second woofer.
If you leave things as they are you need to add boost @ the very low end, and reduce the rest to match. That should work too. Just use the SPL charts a a rough guide.
The SI HT18 would work as a single, and provide higher output capability, but again EQ is needed.
You are on the right track, and it looks from here as if things are coming together. I wish there was an easy way to mix some of that low end into the HC12 sound mix (I think bentoronto suggested a mixer at one point). There is an lot of underutilized diaphragm area in those boxes.
Also, remember that those charts are 2xPi simulations, and the room will dominate the low end.
Regards,
Post #1071: "...put the PP boxes around the pipe chamber AND changed the circuit from 8 to 4 ohms..."
The circuit impedance will only change in in range that is not affected by the series capacitor inside the PP boxes. So it will not have much influence on the loading of the amplifier, as the power consumption in that upper range is much smaller to begin with.
Post #1071: "...The bass from the Dayton box is barely adequate. I wonder if changing out the two Dayton drivers for two HT18s would have improved this?..."
The box is too small for dual SI HT18 drivers. So is the triangular corner box. I'll attach four Hornresp SPL windows, 2 w/ a modified JAG tweak (using only Rg=2Ohm) and 2 w/o tweak.
From the SPL charts the single 385 w/ tweak has the flattest response; the single 385 w/o tweak has a response peak @ 16Hz. Both of these single 385 versions should work for you. Given the unknown nature of the chamber/auditorium response I might try removing one of the 385s, and closing the hole. It should give an overall flatter response. With the bigger and longer port at least now the box tuning looks correct, but you will loose the 6dB gain in the middle and upper bass that comes from the second woofer.
If you leave things as they are you need to add boost @ the very low end, and reduce the rest to match. That should work too. Just use the SPL charts a a rough guide.
The SI HT18 would work as a single, and provide higher output capability, but again EQ is needed.
You are on the right track, and it looks from here as if things are coming together. I wish there was an easy way to mix some of that low end into the HC12 sound mix (I think bentoronto suggested a mixer at one point). There is an lot of underutilized diaphragm area in those boxes.
Also, remember that those charts are 2xPi simulations, and the room will dominate the low end.
Regards,
Attachments
Hi Bach On,
Ben is correct in Post #1072: "...how much signal each speaker is getting?"
Measure the input voltage @ the speakers.
Don't use sine waves for very high power level testing. Use warble tones or music or noise.
For the SI HT18 stay below 55Vac, and for the 385s stay below 20Vac.
Here is a link for downloading test signals:
Professional Online Audio Frequency Signal Generator
One that I highly recommend is the set of 3 test CDs from stereophile for $30.--. That has to be one of the best buys in Audio. You can find them on stereophile.com under htttp://www.stereophile.com/category/audiophile-essentials at the very bottom right of the page under Shop-Recordings... I think they don't really want to sell them, as I always have a hard time finding them. Here is todays store link: Stereophile Shop I looked @ Amazon, but their prices are outlandish(?).
Regards,
Ben is correct in Post #1072: "...how much signal each speaker is getting?"
Measure the input voltage @ the speakers.
Don't use sine waves for very high power level testing. Use warble tones or music or noise.
For the SI HT18 stay below 55Vac, and for the 385s stay below 20Vac.
Here is a link for downloading test signals:
Professional Online Audio Frequency Signal Generator
One that I highly recommend is the set of 3 test CDs from stereophile for $30.--. That has to be one of the best buys in Audio. You can find them on stereophile.com under htttp://www.stereophile.com/category/audiophile-essentials at the very bottom right of the page under Shop-Recordings... I think they don't really want to sell them, as I always have a hard time finding them. Here is todays store link: Stereophile Shop I looked @ Amazon, but their prices are outlandish(?).
Regards,
I'm supposing that mixing a Dayton 15 inch and the HT18 in the same box would not be a good move. The limited Xmax on the Dayton drivers contrasts with the longer Xmax on the HT18. And the drivers have very different T/S specs at several key levels.
That Dayton box is approx. 12 cu. ft. Oliver says the box isn't large enough for two HT18s. If I removed the Daytons, closed up one of the openings and put one HT18 in it - would that provide a decent results with a bit more SPL? The port is 7 and an 1/8 inches in diameter and 33 inches in length.
Yep. I wish I could utilize those 15 inch woofers on the HC12s. I guess it could be done, but it could get complicated pretty fast. I do have two of those Allen Dummy boxes that held the Presence Presenters. It looks like I MIGHT have room to put one of those in there. Perhaps I could use this cabinet as a sealed box using one of the spare Eminence 15 inch drivers. I think I could just squeeze another of these boxes in there. But I'd really need another amp and a crossover.
BO
P.S. I'm first going to get all the boxes working. Then I can do the measurements you guys are recommending. I'm still hopeful that the output on the Artisan Sound Engine will be higher than the output of the CD player. But I do plan to put the ART box on the low bass line. I'm also going to experiment with the crossover frequencies.
That Dayton box is approx. 12 cu. ft. Oliver says the box isn't large enough for two HT18s. If I removed the Daytons, closed up one of the openings and put one HT18 in it - would that provide a decent results with a bit more SPL? The port is 7 and an 1/8 inches in diameter and 33 inches in length.
Yep. I wish I could utilize those 15 inch woofers on the HC12s. I guess it could be done, but it could get complicated pretty fast. I do have two of those Allen Dummy boxes that held the Presence Presenters. It looks like I MIGHT have room to put one of those in there. Perhaps I could use this cabinet as a sealed box using one of the spare Eminence 15 inch drivers. I think I could just squeeze another of these boxes in there. But I'd really need another amp and a crossover.
BO
P.S. I'm first going to get all the boxes working. Then I can do the measurements you guys are recommending. I'm still hopeful that the output on the Artisan Sound Engine will be higher than the output of the CD player. But I do plan to put the ART box on the low bass line. I'm also going to experiment with the crossover frequencies.
Hi Bach On,
I don't really want to go there, but, there is one more (desperation) solution: use two of the SI HT18 in an isobaric arrangement. This should work w/ either one of your boxes if you want to try it. I once did this w/ some way out off spec MCM 10", and it worked very nicely, I still have that subwoofer, and She likes it.
Isobaric arrangement requires half the volume, twice the power, and cost you two drivers.
Regards,
I don't really want to go there, but, there is one more (desperation) solution: use two of the SI HT18 in an isobaric arrangement. This should work w/ either one of your boxes if you want to try it. I once did this w/ some way out off spec MCM 10", and it worked very nicely, I still have that subwoofer, and She likes it.
Isobaric arrangement requires half the volume, twice the power, and cost you two drivers.
Regards,
Got two more HC12s and the HR100 connected and running. That's four HC12s now and the Dayton bass box. The HR100 will carry the upper frequencies of the pedals. As an experiment I connected a 12 band stereo equalizer in the low bass line. I bumped up the low ranges (31.5, 64, and 90 Hz) on the bass line. It did temporarily increase the sound. I guess this partially overcame the lower voltage output from the CD player.
I'll get help to move the last two HC12s and mount the top of that triangular box - hopefully on Monday. Those projects are simply beyond my ability as a solo activity.
I've now spread four of those Allen Presence Presenters around among the pipes. They do make a difference.
But I've learned something that had completely escaped me. I've always listened to the organ sounds only through the shades since I was always the one playing it. There is an access door at the end of the pipe chamber. It's the size of a regular door in a house. I was tinkering with different speaker placements, so I'd left that door open with the ladder to get in the chamber. I was playing organ recordings while I moved back-and-forth from the pipe chamber to the Sanctuary to listen.
The volume in the pipe chamber is at least twice as loud as the sound coming through the shades. The difference in the bass is absolutely staggering. I'm guessing this has always been the case. But I just never realized it.
I'm going to explore with our organ tech what we might do in the future to correct this. We may not need any additional bass boxes if we can correct this problem.
Live and learn.
Bach On
I'll get help to move the last two HC12s and mount the top of that triangular box - hopefully on Monday. Those projects are simply beyond my ability as a solo activity.
I've now spread four of those Allen Presence Presenters around among the pipes. They do make a difference.
But I've learned something that had completely escaped me. I've always listened to the organ sounds only through the shades since I was always the one playing it. There is an access door at the end of the pipe chamber. It's the size of a regular door in a house. I was tinkering with different speaker placements, so I'd left that door open with the ladder to get in the chamber. I was playing organ recordings while I moved back-and-forth from the pipe chamber to the Sanctuary to listen.
The volume in the pipe chamber is at least twice as loud as the sound coming through the shades. The difference in the bass is absolutely staggering. I'm guessing this has always been the case. But I just never realized it.
I'm going to explore with our organ tech what we might do in the future to correct this. We may not need any additional bass boxes if we can correct this problem.
Live and learn.
Bach On
You must have real long arms.
BTW, you'd be surprised how little true low bass in on organ recordings. Rare to find anything under 30 Hz.... esp at the end of a long chain ending with your player jacks. A side drum has more lower bass more readily accessible as in Mahler or Hovhaness symphonies. Or Vangelis' Mission to Mars.
B.
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I have some organ CDs I've listened to on many different sound systems. Thus, I know the music and have a sense of what a good "normal" is - at least in this one area of life.
I just ordered a telescoping ladder from Amazon. It should arrive on Tuesday. I was having to move a 12 foot tall A-frame ladder back and forth from the side door of the pipe chamber to the back door into the speaker chamber. I had to maneuver it through two 90 degree turns and through a door. This should make getting to the different areas a bit easier. Our organ tech has one. It's better for getting in/out of the elevated doors. I really don't want to fall and break something - like my neck.
Maybe Plato and Socrates will come move those speakers into the speaker cave for me. Then they can have a nice debate about whether or not they actually exist.
BO
I just ordered a telescoping ladder from Amazon. It should arrive on Tuesday. I was having to move a 12 foot tall A-frame ladder back and forth from the side door of the pipe chamber to the back door into the speaker chamber. I had to maneuver it through two 90 degree turns and through a door. This should make getting to the different areas a bit easier. Our organ tech has one. It's better for getting in/out of the elevated doors. I really don't want to fall and break something - like my neck.
Maybe Plato and Socrates will come move those speakers into the speaker cave for me. Then they can have a nice debate about whether or not they actually exist.
BO
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