maxro said:
I won`t expect everyone to appreciate what a project like mine entails. The PWM motor controller is also completely of my own design. I had no previous experience with that form of electronic circuit. Having next to no budget has required ingenuity and careful recycling/repurposing of available materials. The motor is a scrapyard salvaged 28 volt DC aircraft generator from 1956. This has taken me months to build. Even without riding it it will have been like completing a course in engineering school. That has real value!
Well then maxro, why not show us what you have designed and crafted all by yourself. This is after all the DIY Forum.
maxro said:
I had a look at the post quoted. That Sir is an abomination of a robbin`s egg!
It is clear that we come at bicycles from two extreme ends of the spectrum. My interest was something ecologically friendly that could be recharged with solar or wind and which gets me somewhere in style without liscensing and insurance costs. Due to health problems brought on by a vehicular accident for which I was not at fault, I am incapable of pedalling either a staionary exercise bike or one that travels any distance on the road. My `invention` is my own custom solution and as a `hobby` project, as pointed out in my last post had significant other values to me.
The group that you ride with appear to be into taking weight OFF, rasther than adding, experimenting with different alloys and composites for frames, etc., and making your bikes as high performance from use of human power as possible, another worthwhile engineering pursuit IMO.
There is a large industry growing at the moment as fuel, insurance and other costs associated with `regular` personal transportation skyrocket beyond an increasing percentage of the population`s abilities to cope. This is the outfitting of regular bicycles with electric motors and battery packs. These `abominations` are going to appeal to some who are not particularly interested in hard pedalling to get where they need to go, whether that is from medical inability or pure laziness. Thumb your nose at this growing group if you will.
I am proud to own the Hummer of bicycle `abominations`!
the dreaded personal comments....
keep 'er civil folks.
if someone want s an 800# "bicycle" so be it.
Maxro, the Bianchi "green" bike is very nice,,,including the Bridgestone inspired "moustache" handlebars.. for all of us semi-retro "weenies" look at Rivendell Bicycles . The modern (if you can call it that) version of the Bridgestone bicycle in North America (after B'stone pulled out of bicycles, the GM of North American operations , Grant Pederson I think, started this).
ash_dac, some kind of sealed hub electric assist may be interesting and usefull as a commuter bike, as you need not show up to work sweaty and hot (particullarly if showers are not available to you)
nueron7 I have earned a living as a bike mechanic, too. I think what rcavictim is after is a useable commuter vehicle that stays within the limit of the law, so that his electric motorcycle can be used legally on the street without special licencing required. Personally I'd try to emulate something a little more suitable, such as a moped with a 49cc or smaller gas engine, but convert it to electric power.
I have a personal interest in converted bicycles to power assist. I think it may be the way of the future for many on the planet to move around. At today's rates, a $0.06 charge can take you 40 kms on a converted bicycle. Power generating stations are much more efficient at converting energy and transmitting it compared to direct use of hydrocarbons of any kind. Methanol makes no sense when embodied energy is considered.
so there ya have the full gamut, ash_dac.
bicycles, folding bicycles, power assist types, and barely recognizeable as bicycles (the electric motorcycle which in its own right is interesting, but not a bicycle), recumbents, DIY type bicycles. Oh. no ones mentioned the tadpole or delta trikes..... OK and the obvious solution to the 15 mile commute, move closer to your work and walk
keep 'er civil folks.
if someone want s an 800# "bicycle" so be it.
Maxro, the Bianchi "green" bike is very nice,,,including the Bridgestone inspired "moustache" handlebars.. for all of us semi-retro "weenies" look at Rivendell Bicycles . The modern (if you can call it that) version of the Bridgestone bicycle in North America (after B'stone pulled out of bicycles, the GM of North American operations , Grant Pederson I think, started this).
ash_dac, some kind of sealed hub electric assist may be interesting and usefull as a commuter bike, as you need not show up to work sweaty and hot (particullarly if showers are not available to you)
nueron7 I have earned a living as a bike mechanic, too. I think what rcavictim is after is a useable commuter vehicle that stays within the limit of the law, so that his electric motorcycle can be used legally on the street without special licencing required. Personally I'd try to emulate something a little more suitable, such as a moped with a 49cc or smaller gas engine, but convert it to electric power.
I have a personal interest in converted bicycles to power assist. I think it may be the way of the future for many on the planet to move around. At today's rates, a $0.06 charge can take you 40 kms on a converted bicycle. Power generating stations are much more efficient at converting energy and transmitting it compared to direct use of hydrocarbons of any kind. Methanol makes no sense when embodied energy is considered.
so there ya have the full gamut, ash_dac.
bicycles, folding bicycles, power assist types, and barely recognizeable as bicycles (the electric motorcycle which in its own right is interesting, but not a bicycle), recumbents, DIY type bicycles. Oh. no ones mentioned the tadpole or delta trikes....
. OK and the obvious solution to the 15 mile commute, move closer to your work and walk
Re: the dreaded personal comments....
Nanook,
My power assisted e-bicycle project did not start out as such. When I obtained the Honda 360 with siezed engine it was a very good deal and the kind of circumstance that does not repeat itself. I began with the thought of building a true electric motorcycle that would be capable of freeway speeds. As I got deeper into determining cost of high performance batteries and motor I came to the conclusion that I would be paying a lot of money to build this, then a lot of money to insure and register a vehicle that would by all accounts be an inferior performance motorcycle. For less effort and initial capitol cost I could have a real store bought crotch rocket. I have no need, or frankly desire for such a thing nor do I need any more drains on my very limited financial resources. A free vehicle that can get me to the grocery store when my car is broken, well that`s something I could call practical!
About this time I happened to see an electric assist bicycle in a nearby town and had the opportunity to chat with the owner. This was not a bicycle look-alike but rather a vehicle with smaller wheels and mucho fairing that looks more like a moped. Learning of the liscense and insurance free status of such a vehicle I decided that this would be the fate of my Honda 360. You are correct, I wish to comply with the power assisted bicycle rules and enjoy the freedom from costs normally associated with keeping a motorized vehicle on the road.
The final enabler for this low cost project was my fortuitous acquisition of a quantity of used but still serviceable, sealed AGM lead acid batteries. At 100 lbs each the batteries were way too much weight to hang from any sort of bike frame less stantial than this Honda 360 chassis, so that sounded like a plan. The only thing I had that would be suitable as a motor needed 48 volts to serve in this application, and on top of that needed to work through a gearbox to do the job. As luck would have it I had a perfect gearbox in an experimental wind turbine project I went through a few years back. This power plant requires the four batteries now installed. If I had the ambition to build a voltage doubler perhaps I could have gotten away with two batteries but then range would be reduced. These batteries only have 1/2 storage capacity remaining. At $400 each I do not plan to replace them when they die. With a near zero budget, this project was filled with engineering tradeoffs based not on what parts could be purchased to best do the job, but rather what was available to me that could be made to work.
If I had a budget, could purchase a frame most suitable, new better physically matched batteries and motor I suspect a moped (as per your suggestion) would have been a good foundation from which to start from strictly an engineering point of view. I would not be as proud driving a moped look alike though. They do not have enough testosterone for me. My front hydraulic disc brake is as large as the moped`s wheels. I see the image of a businessman wearing a suit commuting on a moped and accept it as quite normal in some parts of the world. This is not me.
What I have is very unusual (the advantage of custom DIY) and because of it`s uniqueness would be risky to steal. I expect it will quickly get know in the area once on the road. Additionally, due to the extreme gravitational attraction, an option which conventional store bought e-assisted bicycles do not come with, there is no way a thief will be able to easily grab and run unless he is working with a tow truck or pickup with a crane or winch setup. Once acquired the parts have no street value since the 1974 base motorcycle is an antique and the other parts are either well used (batteries) or do not fit anything else on the planet.
Nanook said:
Nanook,
My power assisted e-bicycle project did not start out as such. When I obtained the Honda 360 with siezed engine it was a very good deal and the kind of circumstance that does not repeat itself. I began with the thought of building a true electric motorcycle that would be capable of freeway speeds. As I got deeper into determining cost of high performance batteries and motor I came to the conclusion that I would be paying a lot of money to build this, then a lot of money to insure and register a vehicle that would by all accounts be an inferior performance motorcycle. For less effort and initial capitol cost I could have a real store bought crotch rocket. I have no need, or frankly desire for such a thing nor do I need any more drains on my very limited financial resources. A free vehicle that can get me to the grocery store when my car is broken, well that`s something I could call practical!
About this time I happened to see an electric assist bicycle in a nearby town and had the opportunity to chat with the owner. This was not a bicycle look-alike but rather a vehicle with smaller wheels and mucho fairing that looks more like a moped. Learning of the liscense and insurance free status of such a vehicle I decided that this would be the fate of my Honda 360. You are correct, I wish to comply with the power assisted bicycle rules and enjoy the freedom from costs normally associated with keeping a motorized vehicle on the road.
The final enabler for this low cost project was my fortuitous acquisition of a quantity of used but still serviceable, sealed AGM lead acid batteries. At 100 lbs each the batteries were way too much weight to hang from any sort of bike frame less stantial than this Honda 360 chassis, so that sounded like a plan. The only thing I had that would be suitable as a motor needed 48 volts to serve in this application, and on top of that needed to work through a gearbox to do the job. As luck would have it I had a perfect gearbox in an experimental wind turbine project I went through a few years back. This power plant requires the four batteries now installed. If I had the ambition to build a voltage doubler perhaps I could have gotten away with two batteries but then range would be reduced. These batteries only have 1/2 storage capacity remaining. At $400 each I do not plan to replace them when they die. With a near zero budget, this project was filled with engineering tradeoffs based not on what parts could be purchased to best do the job, but rather what was available to me that could be made to work.
If I had a budget, could purchase a frame most suitable, new better physically matched batteries and motor I suspect a moped (as per your suggestion) would have been a good foundation from which to start from strictly an engineering point of view. I would not be as proud driving a moped look alike though. They do not have enough testosterone for me. My front hydraulic disc brake is as large as the moped`s wheels. I see the image of a businessman wearing a suit commuting on a moped and accept it as quite normal in some parts of the world. This is not me.
What I have is very unusual (the advantage of custom DIY) and because of it`s uniqueness would be risky to steal. I expect it will quickly get know in the area once on the road. Additionally, due to the extreme gravitational attraction, an option which conventional store bought e-assisted bicycles do not come with, there is no way a thief will be able to easily grab and run unless he is working with a tow truck or pickup with a crane or winch setup. Once acquired the parts have no street value since the 1974 base motorcycle is an antique and the other parts are either well used (batteries) or do not fit anything else on the planet.
rcavictim
as you are in "our home and native land", have a look at Princess Auto. Many sealed lead acid batteries available for pennies on the dollar.
As an "unconventional bicycle" with a particular niche need, then, yes, perhaps a good comprimise for you. Just remember that in Canada there are specific guidelines for "power assisted" bicycles that must be complied with. 49cc gasoline engine, or 500 watts, no faster than 32 km/h on level ground without pedalling,
have a look here for some clarity for Ontario: New and alternative vehicles
as you are in "our home and native land", have a look at Princess Auto. Many sealed lead acid batteries available for pennies on the dollar.
As an "unconventional bicycle" with a particular niche need, then, yes, perhaps a good comprimise for you. Just remember that in Canada there are specific guidelines for "power assisted" bicycles that must be complied with. 49cc gasoline engine, or 500 watts, no faster than 32 km/h on level ground without pedalling,
have a look here for some clarity for Ontario: New and alternative vehicles
Re: rcavictim
I studied all the Ontario rules very carefully before I began building this. Like I mentioned much earlier, a bicycle bell is a legal requirement, so is a special yellow sticker explaining that the vehicle complies to bla-bla-bla, in both french and english, but at least the french does not have to be twice as big or twice as much. I had a lot of trouble to get my bike to approach the legal 20 MPH speed limit and be able to climb the hill into my driveway with no gear changes. I won`t be getting any speeding tickets. BTW, in Ontario 49cc (or any sized internal combustion engine) is not allowed under power assisted bicycle. It is in the moped category and different rules apply including IIRC the need for insurance, liscense, etc.
You mention Princess Auto. That is my second home and I am on their flyer mailing list. I have specifically observed that their batteries are often way past their expiry date and the prices for them are no bargain IMO. That is actually one of the few items that store carries that I would not buy. The other items include their gasoline lawnmower engines. I wouldn`t buy one of those from any supplier. I have gone all diesel wherever possible in the past few years. You can at least grow your own fuel or run from what society throws away. Pretty soon we will all have to grow our own food like in the distant past. Ethynol is just another big business corporate scam to raise the prices of not only fuel but also food! There is no truth that it will be good for the environment, the opposite is true. Diesel vehicles can be converted to run off animal fat and lard. I am surprised I haven`t yet seen the first incidence of a drive-by liposuction assault.
Nanook said:
I studied all the Ontario rules very carefully before I began building this. Like I mentioned much earlier, a bicycle bell is a legal requirement, so is a special yellow sticker explaining that the vehicle complies to bla-bla-bla, in both french and english, but at least the french does not have to be twice as big or twice as much. I had a lot of trouble to get my bike to approach the legal 20 MPH speed limit and be able to climb the hill into my driveway with no gear changes. I won`t be getting any speeding tickets. BTW, in Ontario 49cc (or any sized internal combustion engine) is not allowed under power assisted bicycle. It is in the moped category and different rules apply including IIRC the need for insurance, liscense, etc.
You mention Princess Auto. That is my second home and I am on their flyer mailing list. I have specifically observed that their batteries are often way past their expiry date and the prices for them are no bargain IMO. That is actually one of the few items that store carries that I would not buy. The other items include their gasoline lawnmower engines. I wouldn`t buy one of those from any supplier. I have gone all diesel wherever possible in the past few years. You can at least grow your own fuel or run from what society throws away. Pretty soon we will all have to grow our own food like in the distant past. Ethynol is just another big business corporate scam to raise the prices of not only fuel but also food! There is no truth that it will be good for the environment, the opposite is true. Diesel vehicles can be converted to run off animal fat and lard. I am surprised I haven`t yet seen the first incidence of a drive-by liposuction assault.
rcavictim said:
Well, actually, no. I ride 99.9% for transportation. My everyday bike is a 57 year old Raleigh Lenton Sports with relatively modern components, including a Nexus 7 speed internal hub. Okay, I replaced all the rusted steel parts with aluminum bits, but that is the extent of my alloy experimentation. I only use steel as a building material for my frames (and not just because that is the only material for which I have the technology).
As far as electric bikes go, I support them somewhat further than I can throw them. The comercially available "pedal scooters",on which the pedals are purely a vestage to get by regulations, (some can even be pulled off like a socket wrench.) I have seen and serviced are horrible. The motor kits which can be added to a regular bicycle are much better. If one breaks down (which is not infrequent), the bicylce can usually be pedalled home. Not so much with these scooter things. That ought not to be a problem for you as, having built it yourself, you will be able to fix it yourself.
Spot on about the colour though, it is more of a "robin's egg" than a Bianchi "Celeste".
Otherwise, I agree with everything Nanook has to say in his post.
Re: look at the regs carefully
Nanook,
Regarding the pedals. There are e-assisted bicycles on Ontario roads that are being allowed that have removable pedals and it is only necessary to have them with you while riding. I went to a lot of trouble to put operational pedals on my e-assisted bicycle. I have no intention of relying on them for primary motive power. My expectation would be absolutely no different if I was to go out and put money in someone else`s pocket by purchasing a commercial offering that qualified according to the `rules`.
Maybe it is a good thing that you aren`t the inspector that I need to get my permit from. Tell you what. I mean you no harm, nor am I a threat to you in any way and I AM trying to abide by the law. If you aren`t going to support me then shut up.
Nanook said:
Nanook,
Regarding the pedals. There are e-assisted bicycles on Ontario roads that are being allowed that have removable pedals and it is only necessary to have them with you while riding. I went to a lot of trouble to put operational pedals on my e-assisted bicycle. I have no intention of relying on them for primary motive power. My expectation would be absolutely no different if I was to go out and put money in someone else`s pocket by purchasing a commercial offering that qualified according to the `rules`.
Maybe it is a good thing that you aren`t the inspector that I need to get my permit from. Tell you what. I mean you no harm, nor am I a threat to you in any way and I AM trying to abide by the law. If you aren`t going to support me then shut up.
maxro said:
Maxro,
With my advanced electrical system and ability to carry and power accessories I ought to be able to install a device like On-Star to help me in an emergency, not to mention that I could help out any poor motorist who is stranded at the side of the road for need of a boost. I could even install and power an electric cable winch for emergencies but the presence of that device could be my peril as it would enable a would be thief.
We are living in a time of change brought about by need, diminishing resources, rising costs and instability in the playing field. Characters that chastize or block the efforts of inventors or enterpreneurs active in trying to develop alternatives to the gas guzzling, pollution spewing status quo need to be dealt with appropriately.
rcavictim..."then shut up"
er, well if I had thinner skin, then perhaps this would be a problem. Great thing is that you're there, and I'm here
I am only trying to convince you that unless you have a sympathetic inspector, then all may be for nothing. A converted motorcycle that cannot be powered primarily with muscular power, really is in contradiction to the stated guidelines. I would hate to see you expend whatever budget that you do have , only to be shut down by that one line.
In good old redneck Alberta (former Kingdom of Ralph), lots of folks get shutdown with homebuilt original vehicles that were built using the motor vehicle safety and equipment guidelines. That's it. End of information.
now back to bicycles, in a traditional sense.
ash_dac, I'd recommend as I've already stated:
perhaps do an electric assist add on motor, a gasoline type add on, or move closer.
er, well if I had thinner skin, then perhaps this would be a problem. Great thing is that you're there, and I'm here
I am only trying to convince you that unless you have a sympathetic inspector, then all may be for nothing. A converted motorcycle that cannot be powered primarily with muscular power, really is in contradiction to the stated guidelines. I would hate to see you expend whatever budget that you do have , only to be shut down by that one line.
In good old redneck Alberta (former Kingdom of Ralph), lots of folks get shutdown with homebuilt original vehicles that were built using the motor vehicle safety and equipment guidelines. That's it. End of information.
now back to bicycles, in a traditional sense.
ash_dac, I'd recommend as I've already stated:
perhaps do an electric assist add on motor, a gasoline type add on, or move closer.
Re: Re: look at the regs carefully
Good luck with (c) on Transport Canada's list of regulations:
"(1) "power-assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that:
(a) has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
(b) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
(c) is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
(d) has an electric motor only, which has the following characteristics, namely:
(i) it has a continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of the motor, of 500 W or less,
(ii) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,
(iii) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and
(iv) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on level ground,
(e) bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and
(f) has one of the following safety features,
(i) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
(ii) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3 km/h."
rcavictim said:
Good luck with (c) on Transport Canada's list of regulations:
"(1) "power-assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that:
(a) has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
(b) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
(c) is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
(d) has an electric motor only, which has the following characteristics, namely:
(i) it has a continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of the motor, of 500 W or less,
(ii) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,
(iii) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and
(iv) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on level ground,
(e) bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and
(f) has one of the following safety features,
(i) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
(ii) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3 km/h."
I think some of the Marin's look quite nice. I've been wondering about the frame materials used as I've been looking at aluminum and chro-steel.
I can't seem to find any flat bar single speed bikes. The only one I've found is the Specialized langster New York (not for sale in the UK).
Any thoughts on a Cyclocross bike as a commuter ?
Specialized langster New York
I can't seem to find any flat bar single speed bikes. The only one I've found is the Specialized langster New York (not for sale in the UK).
Any thoughts on a Cyclocross bike as a commuter ?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Specialized langster New York
single speeds/commuting...
ash_dac what is the availability to you of various brands?
Any good Canuck brands there?
Get a mountain bike that fits you and is made of steel with a good steel fork. A used one is quite perfect, get a 26" wheel w/single speed hub. Get rid of the deraileurs, and add a chain tensioner. Pick whatever of the front chainrings you want and mount it in the centre position (to give the best chain alignment). Make sure the chain, chainrings, and rear sprocket are compatible. Buy some Conti Grand Prix MTBs and have some fun.(or Specialized slicks or similar). Drop bars can be added.
ash_dac what is the availability to you of various brands?
Any good Canuck brands there?
Get a mountain bike that fits you and is made of steel with a good steel fork. A used one is quite perfect, get a 26" wheel w/single speed hub. Get rid of the deraileurs, and add a chain tensioner. Pick whatever of the front chainrings you want and mount it in the centre position (to give the best chain alignment). Make sure the chain, chainrings, and rear sprocket are compatible. Buy some Conti Grand Prix MTBs and have some fun.(or Specialized slicks or similar). Drop bars can be added.
Re: single speeds/commuting...
Local shop stocks Marin and Specialized. Otherwise may have to take a trip to one of the Evans' stores to ride different brands and then order online or get it delivered. http://www.evanscycles.com/stores.jsp?#store_160 . They have a sale on at the moment.
I'm finding steel bikes hard to find. I keep seeing aluminum bikes with suspension seat posts which I assume compensate for the frame. I recently rode an aluminum mountain bike and did note that the ride felt a little odd.
Nanook said:ash_dac what is the availability to you of various brands?
Any good Canuck brands there?
Get a mountain bike that fits you and is made of steel with a good steel fork. A used one is quite perfect, get a 26" wheel w/single speed hub. Get rid of the deraileurs, and add a chain tensioner. Pick whatever of the front chainrings you want and mount it in the centre position (to give the best chain alignment). Make sure the chain, chainrings, and rear sprocket are compatible. Buy some Conti Grand Prix MTBs and have some fun.(or Specialized slicks or similar). Drop bars can be added.
Local shop stocks Marin and Specialized. Otherwise may have to take a trip to one of the Evans' stores to ride different brands and then order online or get it delivered. http://www.evanscycles.com/stores.jsp?#store_160 . They have a sale on at the moment.
I'm finding steel bikes hard to find. I keep seeing aluminum bikes with suspension seat posts which I assume compensate for the frame. I recently rode an aluminum mountain bike and did note that the ride felt a little odd.
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