With some drivers calculators left to their own devices come up with less than ideal solutions since their default is max flat extension.
So if it gives you a small cab with an fb higher than fs you need to increase box volume probably up to Vas.
If you have a look at linesource's post 11 in this thread you are aiming for response that looks like the green line. This is the extended bass shelf (EBS) alignement usually used for low Qts drivers. Basically where the max flat extension (small cab tuned high) stops the EBS shelves down by a few dB but than extends flat to Fs.
The missing couple dB can be made up with room gain or a bass control like preamps of old used to have. I have yet to see an EBS alignment that can not be perfected with a 100Hz shelving filter!
That said once you've got the speakers in a room you probably won't want to bother.
It does not affect sound quality, it is essential for old Tannoy DCs for example.
PS: The Faital 15FH510 I mentioned above comes as 15FH530 with demodulation ring and an extra $20 on the price tag which is supposed to improve higher frequencies and reduce distortion. Otherwise both seem to be practically identical and I'm sure EBS would work with either. Decent xmax too.
So if it gives you a small cab with an fb higher than fs you need to increase box volume probably up to Vas.
If you have a look at linesource's post 11 in this thread you are aiming for response that looks like the green line. This is the extended bass shelf (EBS) alignement usually used for low Qts drivers. Basically where the max flat extension (small cab tuned high) stops the EBS shelves down by a few dB but than extends flat to Fs.
The missing couple dB can be made up with room gain or a bass control like preamps of old used to have. I have yet to see an EBS alignment that can not be perfected with a 100Hz shelving filter!
That said once you've got the speakers in a room you probably won't want to bother.
It does not affect sound quality, it is essential for old Tannoy DCs for example.
PS: The Faital 15FH510 I mentioned above comes as 15FH530 with demodulation ring and an extra $20 on the price tag which is supposed to improve higher frequencies and reduce distortion. Otherwise both seem to be practically identical and I'm sure EBS would work with either. Decent xmax too.
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15FH530, excellent choice.
Now I would just get the Fane Sovereign 12-250TC (let it run down to maybe 100hz), a dsp (for crossovers, delay and eq if desired) and be done with it.
For dsp there are minidsp/minidsp hd or Behringer DCX2496 (not the LE as it has no rs-232 interface and no 3rd input for automatic phase control) which are very affordable.
I have to admit I am biased towards fullranges/widebands.
A measurement mic like the minidsp UMIK-1 and software like the free RoomEQWizard will be of help also.
Now I would just get the Fane Sovereign 12-250TC (let it run down to maybe 100hz), a dsp (for crossovers, delay and eq if desired) and be done with it.
For dsp there are minidsp/minidsp hd or Behringer DCX2496 (not the LE as it has no rs-232 interface and no 3rd input for automatic phase control) which are very affordable.
I have to admit I am biased towards fullranges/widebands.
A measurement mic like the minidsp UMIK-1 and software like the free RoomEQWizard will be of help also.
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We're trying to keep the drivers at $500 per speaker (I think
) and we are already at $450 so I think a 2way it is for the time being.Definitely dsp though, either miniDSP or Behringer since the cd will need some eq to get flat and that will change with the horn used.
Bob already has two stereo amps so dsp will not only be a LOT easier to adjust, it will also be cheaper than dialling in a passive crossover which will
require the purchase of a lot of caps, inductors and resistors.
No arguments with the measuring mic though, that is essential.
PS: Bob if you go for a 1.4" compression driver you get a much better choice of suitable horns so that is probably the way to go over the 1" BMS.
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As it happens RCF make some to my eyes very sexy 1.4" horn flares.
They are square so you could rotate them ie you could use the 90x40 in 40x90 as well.
Either way they look very nice, have no sharp corners (good) and are made from cast aluminium (nice) but they cost around $100 so are possibly pushing total cost per speaker to just above $500ea.
They are square so you could rotate them ie you could use the 90x40 in 40x90 as well.
Either way they look very nice, have no sharp corners (good) and are made from cast aluminium (nice) but they cost around $100 so are possibly pushing total cost per speaker to just above $500ea.
They have whizzer cones and those are the work of the devil.
LOL!
No.
I used enclosure design/external methods to get a eq-free, wide soundstage and good high freq dispersion solution.
No speakers were harmed in the process.
I've listened to other whizzers since but they were all terrible in the same ways.
I do like point sources though which is why I own two pairs of classic Tannoy DualConcentrics.
I have no idea what you mean by 'sounding torn'. Vertically aligned multiways do sound slightly different from point sources but that only really becomes audible once you move around the room.
I do like point sources though which is why I own two pairs of classic Tannoy DualConcentrics.
I have no idea what you mean by 'sounding torn'. Vertically aligned multiways do sound slightly different from point sources but that only really becomes audible once you move around the room.
I've heard incoherent speakers but that is a mark of badly designed cheap ones, not something common to all multyways. Something like an ATC is to my ears very coherent given a minimum distance.
As it happens whizzers to me sound incoherent: Low and mid can be ok but the treble always sounds very different (in a bad way) to the rest of the driver.
Funny how we hear so very different individually.
As it happens whizzers to me sound incoherent: Low and mid can be ok but the treble always sounds very different (in a bad way) to the rest of the driver.
Funny how we hear so very different individually.
Well, straight from the factory I am not satisfied with highs performance of some fullranges.
Therefore I needed to address some things.
High excursion of the main cone will not help clean highs on a whizzer cone therefore one should use xover maybe around 100hz and a supporting sub.
Also one just needs to "damp" the whizzer(s) a little to decrease the cone break-up modes.
I used non-woven polyester on a vertical triangle-shaped rod in front of the speaker at maybe around 3" distance, tip facing the speaker.
This sucked the minimally "harsh" highs and also increased high freq dispersion, due to the triangle shape.
In combination with a short horn "around" the speaker which will boost mids a little and help the soundstage I don`t need any eq anymore.
This were my "external" methods to prevent damage of that beautiful sounding driver.
Yes, it is funny.
Maybe genetics.
Therefore I needed to address some things.
High excursion of the main cone will not help clean highs on a whizzer cone therefore one should use xover maybe around 100hz and a supporting sub.
Also one just needs to "damp" the whizzer(s) a little to decrease the cone break-up modes.
I used non-woven polyester on a vertical triangle-shaped rod in front of the speaker at maybe around 3" distance, tip facing the speaker.
This sucked the minimally "harsh" highs and also increased high freq dispersion, due to the triangle shape.
In combination with a short horn "around" the speaker which will boost mids a little and help the soundstage I don`t need any eq anymore.
This were my "external" methods to prevent damage of that beautiful sounding driver.
Yes, it is funny.
Maybe genetics.
They are in ugly prototype OSB right now.
And one "optimization" is still missing.
There is/are no finish, case corners, edge protection, speaker terminal, etc. yet.
Will post pictures once I got the final enclosure ready (for presentation).
A rough sketch earlier in this same thread:
15" 2-way Ideas
The finished one will be roughly the same, only slight modifications.
And one "optimization" is still missing.
There is/are no finish, case corners, edge protection, speaker terminal, etc. yet.
Will post pictures once I got the final enclosure ready (for presentation).
A rough sketch earlier in this same thread:
15" 2-way Ideas
The finished one will be roughly the same, only slight modifications.
Whizzers do not work for me at all on drivers smaller than 8". On 8-10" I consider it a mixed bag/can be pretty good, or horrible pending on the implementation. On 12-15" they work great!
Point me to a 1.4" CD + horn cheaper than the Fane 250TC/FC152.
I have the Radian 475PB, but actually prefer the Fane FC152 all things considered.
Point me to a 1.4" CD + horn cheaper than the Fane 250TC/FC152.
I have the Radian 475PB, but actually prefer the Fane FC152 all things considered.
I do not like large midrange drivers. They do not sound good, unless crossed very low to tweeter. Off course tweeter must be able to handle it.
Large midrange drivers suffer from beaming and cone breakups. How badly it depends on the driver, but general rules apply. 5" mid can be crossed as high as 4kH, 6" starts beaming at 3kHz. 8" should be crossed no higher than 2.8kHz. 12" no higher then 1.9kHz...and so on. If you select large midrange and cross it high to tweeter, you will have terrible directivity, as midrange will start beaming well before its crossed over, once tweeter joins in, directivity will be wide again...terrible off axis response, bad sounding speaker.
Large midrange drivers suffer from beaming and cone breakups. How badly it depends on the driver, but general rules apply. 5" mid can be crossed as high as 4kH, 6" starts beaming at 3kHz. 8" should be crossed no higher than 2.8kHz. 12" no higher then 1.9kHz...and so on. If you select large midrange and cross it high to tweeter, you will have terrible directivity, as midrange will start beaming well before its crossed over, once tweeter joins in, directivity will be wide again...terrible off axis response, bad sounding speaker.
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