I'd go with McShane's recommendation. I have piles of "classic" 12AX7/ECC83 (Mullard, Telefunken, Valvo...) as well as some new ones, and there's really nothing special about old vs new other than collectable status and audiophile legend. Some are better than others regarding noise and microphonics, but that doesn't correlate with age or rarity/cost/audiophile cred.
Over the last 4-5 days, I have spent hours on the net reading every opinion I can find on 12ax7 and 12at7 tubes. While some get mentioned more than others, its almost like taking a poll on what is your favorite vegetable. There is NO consensus. None.
Amperex bugle boys
RCA black plates
Telefunken
Mullard
While these ^^^^ get mentioned the most, they are of course the most expensive and out of my price range.
Since i cant afford any of these, I am left with either going with 2nd tier NOS or current production.
Amperex bugle boys
RCA black plates
Telefunken
Mullard
While these ^^^^ get mentioned the most, they are of course the most expensive and out of my price range.
Since i cant afford any of these, I am left with either going with 2nd tier NOS or current production.
Indeed, and that's OK. I just want Jim to know that "expensive NOS is better" is not a universally held opinion among experienced designers and builders.
I agree with your second definition, although some audiophiles do seem to have unlimited funds.
But what someone can get their hands on has a direct correlation to what they can afford. Someone can be a audiophile and basically be poor.
OK, time to let the cat out of the bag !I've just scored a MATCH PR 1960's MULLARD 10M 12AX7A NOS TEST READINGS EXCELLENT CONDITION The "Holy Grail" of pre-amp tubes. These are guaranteed to last 10.000 hrs +. I don't really think I'll be needing to acquire any more 12ax7 tubes. They cost $400 a pair and I was lucky I was the only bidder-bidding started at US $400. (AU $383), I got 'em for a steal. That was my little secret, I wasn't letting on about them as a lot of people have been following this thread that you started. Good thread by the way Jim.
Cheers,
Andrew.
Jeez thats funny.
I just sold a pair of NOS Mullard 1958 12AX7As new in box for $210 on Ebay.
I think you got burned on the price.
Mullards
I still have a Mullard 12AU7 I haven't listed yet.
I have always found the Amperex,s to sound the cleanest and lowest subjective distortion of the 12ax7 family. I found them superior to the telefunken. Tungsram never lasted long enough to bother with. Never tried the Mullards but understand they were nice tubes.
Philips and JAN tubes are junk
Once you find a set you like, leave the unit on and don,t shut it off if you want them to last. This sounds like a bad idea on the surface, but a good set of tubes will last way longer than constant turning them on and off.
Regards
David
Philips and JAN tubes are junk
Once you find a set you like, leave the unit on and don,t shut it off if you want them to last. This sounds like a bad idea on the surface, but a good set of tubes will last way longer than constant turning them on and off.
Regards
David
Here's the Full Monty on Mullard's:
My Long Plates are way better sounding and worth far more than the M10 series, which are all short-plate cheap crap,
not Audiophile quality.
The reason the M10s are valued is their 10,000 hour average lifespan,
which has nothing to do with sound quality,
but rather military spec assembly elements and careful quality control inspections.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Tubeking's Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
which is still available on Google in Archived pages.
Here's a quote:
"[/FONT]However, you should know which Mullard ECC83 type you are getting, because the sound can differ significantly between each type.
MC1 Long Plate Square Getter: The most sought after, early production and expensive Mullard ECC83 from the mid-1950s. This one has 17mm long gray ladder plates and a dual supported square getter. This is the ultimate 'Mullard' sound.... big, open and warm with a tweedy harmonic overdrive. The etched MC1 code on the bottom of the glass denotes this type, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + a Number and a Letter.
F91 Long Plate Dual Halo Getter: Similar in sonic characteristics to the MC1 Mullard above. This version comes from the late 50's (roughly 1957-1958) and will sometimes come with a square getter. It sounds very similar or the same to the MC1 Mullard, but is usually a bit less expensive. You can tell this type by the etched F91 code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + a Number and a Letter.
F92 Long Plate Single Halo Getter: Similar in sonic characteristics to the F91 Mullard above. This version comes from the late 50's (1959) and will have a single supported halo. It sounds very similar or the same to the MC1 Mullard, but is usually somewhat less expensive. You can tell this type by the etched F92 code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + a Number and a Letter.
I61 Short Plate Halo Getter: This is the first short plate Mullard ever produced and was made around 1959-1964. A great tube with that classic 'Mullard' sound, this tube has the benefit of resistance to microphonics due to the plate structure. At the same time, the open 3-D midrange sounds similar to the long plate Mullards, with a little more balls. One of my favorite guitar tubes. You can tell this type by the etched I6I code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + two Numbers and one Letter.
I63 Short Plate Halo Getter: This is the second short plate Mullard ever produced* and was made from 1965 onwards. This tube is a bit more compressed than some of the Mullards listed above, so it is favored by many rock guitarists for its distortion characteristics. Many people will use an I61 or F91/F92 tube in the V1 (first slot) of their guitar amp for overall sound, and then put an I63 type in their overdrive slot (usually V2 or V3). This can be an ideal combination, depending on your amp and what you are going for. You can tell this type by the etched I63 code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + two Numbers and one Letter. *(There was actually a very short production run "Yellow Label" Mullard ECC83 produced right before this tube.)
CV4004 M187 ECC83 Box plate: The CV4004 box plate Mullard is a military production tube that can be identified by its unique plate structure. This is a well built, highly desirable and favored tube by audiophiles. Many swear by this tube for their home tube stereo systems, and prefer them to regular Mullards. Some guitarists use them in their amps, but most seem to prefer regular Mullards. Produced at the Mullard Mitchum Factory these tubes can usually be identified by the 'R' code etched in the bottom of the glass + a Number and a Letter.
Mullard 10M Master Series ECC83: These were specially made, later production Mullard short plates that are rated for 10,000+ hours in a tube amp. They were also specially selected for low noise and balanced triodes. They can be identified by the Gold Mullard '10M' Logo on the tube and they have gold or regular pins. The Gold Pin versions are superior and worth more. These tubes are highly sought after by audiophiles. They have a wide-band sound similar to a Telefunken, but with a touch of that Mullard warmth. They are quite rare, and can fetch insane prices, especially if they are NOS. I finally got a chance to hear this tube in my guitar amp and I am impressed... fabulous balanced clean sound with a touch of brightness.... incredibly SWEET. Overdrive was pretty cool as well. I can see why audio guys go crazy for these tubes.
There are other Mullard ECC83s that were produced later, but the tubes listed above are the ones you should look for. Beware of fake Mullards being sold on ebay. These will often have 'perfect' baked-on enamel labels that will not wipe off. These labels usually look too thick and 'painted-on' in pictures. Real silk-screened Mullard logos look much more delicate in pictures. Sometimes Matshushita tubes will be sold as Mullards with Shield logos. These are Japanese tubes that were made on Mullard tooling so they look similar to I63 Type Mullards. Not a bad tube, but be aware that some vendors will relabel these to pass them off as the real thing. Sometimes you will see "OEM" Mullards that originally had no labels branded with a fake Mullard label from another era. This can also happen with British 'Brimars' which can have fake Mullard labels. There are also people on ebay selling 'Mullards' with obviously new, fake and cloned 'Mullard' boxes that look nothing like the real thing.... unbelievable. Always purchase your tubes from reputable dealers. We carefully screen each and every tube we sell to make sure they are authentic."
[/FONT]
My Long Plates are way better sounding and worth far more than the M10 series, which are all short-plate cheap crap,
not Audiophile quality.
The reason the M10s are valued is their 10,000 hour average lifespan,
which has nothing to do with sound quality,
but rather military spec assembly elements and careful quality control inspections.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Tubeking's Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
which is still available on Google in Archived pages.
Here's a quote:
"[/FONT]However, you should know which Mullard ECC83 type you are getting, because the sound can differ significantly between each type.
MC1 Long Plate Square Getter: The most sought after, early production and expensive Mullard ECC83 from the mid-1950s. This one has 17mm long gray ladder plates and a dual supported square getter. This is the ultimate 'Mullard' sound.... big, open and warm with a tweedy harmonic overdrive. The etched MC1 code on the bottom of the glass denotes this type, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + a Number and a Letter.
F91 Long Plate Dual Halo Getter: Similar in sonic characteristics to the MC1 Mullard above. This version comes from the late 50's (roughly 1957-1958) and will sometimes come with a square getter. It sounds very similar or the same to the MC1 Mullard, but is usually a bit less expensive. You can tell this type by the etched F91 code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + a Number and a Letter.
F92 Long Plate Single Halo Getter: Similar in sonic characteristics to the F91 Mullard above. This version comes from the late 50's (1959) and will have a single supported halo. It sounds very similar or the same to the MC1 Mullard, but is usually somewhat less expensive. You can tell this type by the etched F92 code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + a Number and a Letter.
I61 Short Plate Halo Getter: This is the first short plate Mullard ever produced and was made around 1959-1964. A great tube with that classic 'Mullard' sound, this tube has the benefit of resistance to microphonics due to the plate structure. At the same time, the open 3-D midrange sounds similar to the long plate Mullards, with a little more balls. One of my favorite guitar tubes. You can tell this type by the etched I6I code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + two Numbers and one Letter.
I63 Short Plate Halo Getter: This is the second short plate Mullard ever produced* and was made from 1965 onwards. This tube is a bit more compressed than some of the Mullards listed above, so it is favored by many rock guitarists for its distortion characteristics. Many people will use an I61 or F91/F92 tube in the V1 (first slot) of their guitar amp for overall sound, and then put an I63 type in their overdrive slot (usually V2 or V3). This can be an ideal combination, depending on your amp and what you are going for. You can tell this type by the etched I63 code on the bottom of the glass, along with the 'B' Blackburn Code + two Numbers and one Letter. *(There was actually a very short production run "Yellow Label" Mullard ECC83 produced right before this tube.)
CV4004 M187 ECC83 Box plate: The CV4004 box plate Mullard is a military production tube that can be identified by its unique plate structure. This is a well built, highly desirable and favored tube by audiophiles. Many swear by this tube for their home tube stereo systems, and prefer them to regular Mullards. Some guitarists use them in their amps, but most seem to prefer regular Mullards. Produced at the Mullard Mitchum Factory these tubes can usually be identified by the 'R' code etched in the bottom of the glass + a Number and a Letter.
Mullard 10M Master Series ECC83: These were specially made, later production Mullard short plates that are rated for 10,000+ hours in a tube amp. They were also specially selected for low noise and balanced triodes. They can be identified by the Gold Mullard '10M' Logo on the tube and they have gold or regular pins. The Gold Pin versions are superior and worth more. These tubes are highly sought after by audiophiles. They have a wide-band sound similar to a Telefunken, but with a touch of that Mullard warmth. They are quite rare, and can fetch insane prices, especially if they are NOS. I finally got a chance to hear this tube in my guitar amp and I am impressed... fabulous balanced clean sound with a touch of brightness.... incredibly SWEET. Overdrive was pretty cool as well. I can see why audio guys go crazy for these tubes.
There are other Mullard ECC83s that were produced later, but the tubes listed above are the ones you should look for. Beware of fake Mullards being sold on ebay. These will often have 'perfect' baked-on enamel labels that will not wipe off. These labels usually look too thick and 'painted-on' in pictures. Real silk-screened Mullard logos look much more delicate in pictures. Sometimes Matshushita tubes will be sold as Mullards with Shield logos. These are Japanese tubes that were made on Mullard tooling so they look similar to I63 Type Mullards. Not a bad tube, but be aware that some vendors will relabel these to pass them off as the real thing. Sometimes you will see "OEM" Mullards that originally had no labels branded with a fake Mullard label from another era. This can also happen with British 'Brimars' which can have fake Mullard labels. There are also people on ebay selling 'Mullards' with obviously new, fake and cloned 'Mullard' boxes that look nothing like the real thing.... unbelievable. Always purchase your tubes from reputable dealers. We carefully screen each and every tube we sell to make sure they are authentic."
[/FONT]
...and this thread is a microcosm of what is on the net.
But I will contend that one thing is clear. Tubes DO sound different. One can argue the performance/$$$ ratio, yes.
Subjectivity plays a HUGE part in a discussion of this kind.
People with big wallets dont mind paying big bucks, so they tend to not even consider lesser priced tubes. People on a budget have to sift through the data and opinions and in the end, make a guess.
As I should have foreseen from the beginning, picking out the right tube is a crapshoot, generally.
Only than the really cheap Solvek's, which no one likes, I have found to have a consensus.
I am beginning to think my 80's vintage JAN Phillips 12at7's that are in the unit may just stay in it
I don't know why people are down on JAN Philips USA made NOS tubes,
made to pass stringent military testing and quality control.
They sound great.
90% of preamp tube sound has to do with proper circuit design,
and it has little to do with overpriced caps or special gold-plated pins.
If a circuit sounds completely different every time you sub a good tube in it,
there is something horribly wrong with the design.
A good design should not be oversensitive to small variations in GM or gain or biasing found in all manufacturing samples.
A good design should center on the specs of the best and most standard quality tubes,
and at the same time be generous and tolerant of minor variations between tubes.
What I have found is that most people,
even large manufacturers and designers actually don't know how to bias tubes or design circuits for the intended function.
The Aikido Comedy is just one example.
made to pass stringent military testing and quality control.
They sound great.
90% of preamp tube sound has to do with proper circuit design,
and it has little to do with overpriced caps or special gold-plated pins.
If a circuit sounds completely different every time you sub a good tube in it,
there is something horribly wrong with the design.
A good design should not be oversensitive to small variations in GM or gain or biasing found in all manufacturing samples.
A good design should center on the specs of the best and most standard quality tubes,
and at the same time be generous and tolerant of minor variations between tubes.
What I have found is that most people,
even large manufacturers and designers actually don't know how to bias tubes or design circuits for the intended function.
The Aikido Comedy is just one example.
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