You'd need to get the schematic from ART to see what's really going on. Or open up the thing and trace your own schematic. Otherwise it's just another black box.
ART should know best whether or not you're safe using either 12AX7 or 12AT7 in that EQ. If they say it's OK with either type, then it must be OK. If that's true, then I'm sure 5751 would be fine too. (Expensive, though.)
Assuming either type of tube will work just fine in there, just use whichever one you like better.
I didn't mean to imply that the 12AX7's in your EQ would be running too hot. I was just comparing the 12AT7 and 12AX7 in a specific, hypothetical circuit I dreamed up, and listing how those tubes would operate in that circuit. The idea was to demonstrate that the 12AT7 and 12AX7 are indeed different tubes that will act quite differently when dropped into the same circuit. (And I made a mathematical error to boot -- The 12AX7 is just fine there. It would only be dissipating 0.13 watt, NOT 1.3 watts!
)It seems to me that sweating bullets over which magic brand of 12AX7 will bring the best sonic results is wasted energy. A good set of either 12AT7 or 12AX7 should be fine. If you want to throw lots of money at taste-testing all the various brands of 12AX7, 12AX7A, 7025, 7025A, 5751, 5751WA, ECC83, 12DT7, 6681, 12AT7, 12AT7WA, 12AT7WB, 6201, 12AZ7, ECC81 or whatever... then OK. It used to be cheap thrills, but that's an expensive hobby these days.
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I have not mentioned this before but a couple of months ago I purchased a mathed pair of GENALEX GOLD LIONS 12ax7's.All help is welcome
The Mullard is under consideration. I did read that some find them a bit to prominent in the midrange. But like any internet blog read, you dont the the system, the device, the listeners preferences, the speakers, the room, nothing. So a comment like that may or may not be what I would hear with them.
The unfortunate thing here for me is that I need to get this right the first time. Obviously, the the folks that will try a half a dozen pairs to find the right fit have more disposable income than I. Whatever I get, its what I will be stuck with for a good long time.
If you have read this entire thread, you know that its unclear exactly what is the right tube for my ART tube EQ. So this has complicated things.
Straight off they were the best tubes I've ever heard, but after about 15 mins I cranked 'er up (Sansui 1000A 40W p/c) and about 5 mins later the sound became so mushy I turned it off.
This was happening repeatedly for about a week to the point were I pulled 'em out and shoved the RCA's back in.
I tried the Goldies out again in another stereo Pioneer SA-810 (35W p/c) where they are now being used (cranked up ) and I must say they are performing very well. They obviously need a good "burn in period", much more stable now. Man, they sound real good.
I don't trust them yet but it's building.
The GENALEX GOLD LIONS are the latest reproduction tubes made in Russia. Cost me about $65 from USA. The original Goldies were made in Britain in the heyday.
Hope this helps ! ( I guess you are pretty confused now with the influx of peoples opinions and experiences).
Cheers,
Andrew.
I have not mentioned this before but a couple of months ago I purchased a mathed pair of GENALEX GOLD LIONS 12ax7's.
Straight off they were the best tubes I've ever heard, but after about 15 mins I cranked 'er up (Sansui 1000A 40W p/c) and about 5 mins later the sound became so mushy I turned it off.
This was happening repeatedly for about a week to the point were I pulled 'em out and shoved the RCA's back in.
I tried the Goldies out again in another stereo Pioneer SA-810 (35W p/c) where they are now being used (cranked up ) and I must say they are performing very well. They obviously need a good "burn in period", much more stable now. Man, they sound real good.
I don't trust them yet but it's building.
The GENALEX GOLD LIONS are the latest reproduction tubes made in Russia. Cost me about $65 from USA. The original Goldies were made in Britain in the heyday.
Hope this helps ! ( I guess you are pretty confused now with the influx of peoples opinions and experiences).
Cheers,
Andrew.
Interesting story. My only other previous experience with tubes was a CAL Aria CD Player that had 6dj8 tubes in it. I installed a couple different tubes in it just to see how the sound changed. To my ears at the time, it seemed the new tubes sounded the same from the first minute to the last. I didnt experience any burn in period or change in sound at all. Golden Dragons and some Inexpensive Russian variety was what I was playing with.
I had a reputable tube guy tell me yesterday that the tubes being made today sound very good and you dont have to go NOS at all to get good sound. In his defense, he said he liked NOS, but thought you didnt have to spend that much basically.
Actually, the Genalex Gold Lion re-issues were the first tube to catch my eye. I got steered away by all the NOS lovers
The person mentioned above thought highly of the Sovtek 12AX7LPS & Mullard long plate re-issues.
You'd need to get the schematic from ART to see what's really going on. Or open up the thing and trace your own schematic. Otherwise it's just another black box.
ART should know best whether or not you're safe using either 12AX7 or 12AT7 in that EQ. If they say it's OK with either type, then it must be OK. If that's true, then I'm sure 5751 would be fine too. (Expensive, though.)
Assuming either type of tube will work just fine in there, just use whichever one you like better.
I didn't mean to imply that the 12AX7's in your EQ would be running too hot. I was just comparing the 12AT7 and 12AX7 in a specific, hypothetical circuit I dreamed up, and listing how those tubes would operate in that circuit. The idea was to demonstrate that the 12AT7 and 12AX7 are indeed different tubes that will act quite differently when dropped into the same circuit. (And I made a mathematical error to boot -- The 12AX7 is just fine there. It would only be dissipating 0.13 watt, NOT 1.3 watts!
It seems to me that sweating bullets over which magic brand of 12AX7 will bring the best sonic results is wasted energy. A good set of either 12AT7 or 12AX7 should be fine. If you want to throw lots of money at taste-testing all the various brands of 12AX7, 12AX7A, 7025, 7025A, 5751, 5751WA, ECC83, 12DT7, 6681, 12AT7, 12AT7WA, 12AT7WB, 6201, 12AZ7, ECC81 or whatever... then OK. It used to be cheap thrills, but that's an expensive hobby these days.
--
I just sent ART a request for a schematic. I probably wont know what to look for, but hopefully you or someone here can.
IF really great tubes were <$10 a pair, I would probably buy 3 or 4 pairs and just try them all. But today, that would be hundreds of $$$$
It not so much im sweating it out, more that I am just trying to make the most informed decision possible.
One thing I think I have overlooked a bit in all this is determining the quality of what was in the unit (as I found it) to begin with.
So the question becomes, how good is the JAN Phillips 12at7wc?
JAN-Philips 12AT7WC
The above link looks like what I have right now. Both the picture and description match perfectly. a $13 tube.
Interesting story. My only other previous experience with tubes was a CAL Aria CD Player that had 6dj8 tubes in it. I installed a couple different tubes in it just to see how the sound changed. To my ears at the time, it seemed the new tubes sounded the same from the first minute to the last. I didnt experience any burn in period or change in sound at all. Golden Dragons and some Inexpensive Russian variety was what I was playing with.
I had a reputable tube guy tell me yesterday that the tubes being made today sound very good and you dont have to go NOS at all to get good sound. In his defense, he said he liked NOS, but thought you didnt have to spend that much basically.
Actually, the Genalex Gold Lion re-issues were the first tube to catch my eye. I got steered away by all the NOS lovers
I have some Sovtek 12ax7LPS NOS from the late 80's, now used. They do sound "very nice" but I felt ( & to my ears ) that they were a tad whimpy at bass freq', where as the RCA' s were "all that".
Regarding the burn-in period I mentioned about the Gen' Goldies, it is still present but I was playing some pretty loud music before it started to mush up a bit (4 - 5 hours non-stop) before I put 'er to sleep.
I could have kept tweaking bass & treble but that was a very good non-stop run and I reckoned a bit of peace and quiet was called for.
Mullards from the Blackburn plant (NOS) are the some of the best 12ax7's,
as usual they'll cost a "pretty penny". Also Amperex "Bugle Boys" from either Canada or Holland are a treat too. There are a lot of good tubes about but it pays to do some research. Time consuming, but it does help to narrow the field.
I am holding back another little secrtet about some 12ax7's in particular-
I'll let on tomorrow or else I might ah - 'nough said !!!
Cheers,
Andrew.
The best thing is not to rush it, after all patience "is" a virtue and can save some money and headaches.
Easy for me to say as I have about 11 different tube amps, so I always have use of at least 1. (Single w/no kids, good job) I am 48 & have waited many years to be in the position I am now in. (I hope I don't get struck down by lightening) heh hehn heh !
Andrew.
Easy for me to say as I have about 11 different tube amps, so I always have use of at least 1. (Single w/no kids, good job) I am 48 & have waited many years to be in the position I am now in. (I hope I don't get struck down by lightening) heh hehn heh !
Andrew.
The best thing is not to rush it, after all patience "is" a virtue and can save some money and headaches.
Easy for me to say as I have about 11 different tube amps, so I always have use of at least 1. (Single w/no kids, good job) I am 48 & have waited many years to be in the position I am now in. (I hope I don't get struck down by lightening) heh hehn heh !
Andrew.
Excellent advice. Fortunately, I dont really need to make a decision for 2 or 3 weeks.
I am single, no kids also
Not a great income though Which is why I cant go hog wild on experimenting here.
Excellent advice. Fortunately, I dont really need to make a decision for 2 or 3 weeks.
I am single, no kids also
Jim,
I almost wish you were a neighbour so I could help yer out bit, but, you
live in Texas and I'm a little envious of that.
A song I started to write a couple of years ago
I wanna be a cowboy - I wanna live in Texas
And ride in a ro deo - and wear a ten gallon hat
( Country blues rock )
Andrew.
I also have some old used (still strong) Bugle Boys from Canada. Awesome sound,very very different from what I am used to. They somehow make the bass sound like the speakers are made of loose rags. Strange - yes totally, but very soft on and pleasing to the ears. A truly vintage sound that I've not heard before ! (they cut it no problems at all ).
Cheers,
Andrew.
Cheers,
Andrew.
Just to cover the full gambit here, here are two that seem popular among non-NOS tubes:
Tung-sol 12AX7 / ECC83
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Tung%252dsol-12AX7-%7B47%7D-ECC83.html
---------------------------------------
Sovtek 12AX7LPS
This was a Jim McShane recommendation
Tube & Information Page
---------------------------------------
Any other contenders in the non-NOS $30-$40 /matched pair range ?
Tung-sol 12AX7 / ECC83
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Tung%252dsol-12AX7-%7B47%7D-ECC83.html
---------------------------------------
Sovtek 12AX7LPS
This was a Jim McShane recommendation
Tube & Information Page
---------------------------------------
Any other contenders in the non-NOS $30-$40 /matched pair range ?
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Ther are certain brands of tubes that I wouldn't touch with a barbers pole, Tungsol being one of them, Electro Harmonix, any made in China and others I can't remember right now.
$30 - $40 in my opinion won't get you what you want, certainly not what I want.
It's a tough call if you want to get it right 1st time.
Cheap means cheap components, materials and a lack of "expert" knowledge and processes etc etc....
The tubes I go for are from the pinnacle of the tube era, (apart from the new Genalex Gold Lions I bought). Perhaps you might like to try them, or the Sovtek 12ax7LPS (not 12ax7WA).
$30 - $40 in my opinion won't get you what you want, certainly not what I want.
It's a tough call if you want to get it right 1st time.
Cheap means cheap components, materials and a lack of "expert" knowledge and processes etc etc....
The tubes I go for are from the pinnacle of the tube era, (apart from the new Genalex Gold Lions I bought). Perhaps you might like to try them, or the Sovtek 12ax7LPS (not 12ax7WA).
OK, time to let the cat out of the bag !
I've just scored a MATCH PR 1960's MULLARD 10M 12AX7A NOS TEST READINGS EXCELLENT CONDITION The "Holy Grail" of pre-amp tubes. These are guaranteed to last 10.000 hrs +. I don't really think I'll be needing to acquire any more 12ax7 tubes. They cost $400 a pair and I was lucky I was the only bidder-bidding started at US $400. (AU $383), I got 'em for a steal. That was my little secret, I wasn't letting on about them as a lot of people have been following this thread that you started. Good thread by the way Jim.
Cheers,
Andrew.
I've just scored a MATCH PR 1960's MULLARD 10M 12AX7A NOS TEST READINGS EXCELLENT CONDITION The "Holy Grail" of pre-amp tubes. These are guaranteed to last 10.000 hrs +. I don't really think I'll be needing to acquire any more 12ax7 tubes. They cost $400 a pair and I was lucky I was the only bidder-bidding started at US $400. (AU $383), I got 'em for a steal. That was my little secret, I wasn't letting on about them as a lot of people have been following this thread that you started. Good thread by the way Jim.Cheers,
Andrew.
You have great taste, but I cant afford the tubes you like. $75 tops for a pair of NOS. And for new tubes (non-NOS) I probably would only go to $40 a pair.
If that doesnt get me there, so be it.
The Solvek and Tung Sol post was an illustration to what some highly regarded folks in the industry recommend in a non-NOS tube.
That's only a difference of $35 Jim. Or you could go for what you can get your hands on and in the meantime put your spare change in a jar for a rainy day, or a nice set of NOS.
Sorry mate, I just can't recommend any pairs for $40. Sorta like running a race car on Kero !
Keep at it Jim, you'll get there.
Cheers,
Andrew.
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