I ain't scared of no 2" or 1.5" round over
Then do it. Geddes' speakers do it.
If not for difficult availability, Acoustic Elegance would be the go-to for these kind of speakers. =(
The seos-12 looks nice!
For a 12" woofer the SEOS-12 is great.
But for a badass 15" woofer, the poured SEOS-15 or SEOS-18 (around $60-65 ea) are the way to go. The 12 is plastic and can probably mate to a 15 at around 900hz but why not go all out?
If that was directed towards me, i'm looking at going with the DIYsound group "De250 beater" driver for the rear wave, and leaning towards this DIYsound group BEAST for the front wave (shown left next to the De250):
Directed towards OP and whoever else wants to talk about compression drivers
I have not found a better rated CD for around the price of the B&C (BMS and one other are similar) or not much more. I know JBL are ridiculously expensive, and let's not even discuss TAD I am curious what the next step in price and sound quality would be for a 1" compression driver...
I saw someone do an econowave build with an AE 12" (TD12M?), but heard nothing about the woofer. I would get one if I could find out if it is similar or better than a KappaliteHO. I think I am using the KappliteHO as reference since I have seen it used and have a little info on it.
What in the heck is that huge beast of a compression driver? Is it still available? I don't have the funds right now, so many of the options I am looking at are easy to get a hold of through major online websites. If it's a one time thing, or a group buy I may not be able to do it
So, you are doing a dipole? With rear firing horn? Interesting... You woofer is going to be open baffle?
I have not found a better rated CD for around the price of the B&C (BMS and one other are similar) or not much more. I know JBL are ridiculously expensive, and let's not even discuss TAD
I am curious what the next step in price and sound quality would be for a 1" compression driver...I saw someone do an econowave build with an AE 12" (TD12M?), but heard nothing about the woofer. I would get one if I could find out if it is similar or better than a KappaliteHO. I think I am using the KappliteHO as reference since I have seen it used and have a little info on it.
What in the heck is that huge beast of a compression driver? Is it still available? I don't have the funds right now, so many of the options I am looking at are easy to get a hold of through major online websites. If it's a one time thing, or a group buy I may not be able to do it
So, you are doing a dipole? With rear firing horn? Interesting... You woofer is going to be open baffle?
Directed towards OP and whoever else wants to talk about compression drivers
I have not found a better rated CD for around the price of the B&C (BMS and one other are similar) or not much more. I know JBL are ridiculously expensive, and let's not even discuss TAD
Well you need a good CD with an exit angle that matches the throat angle of the horn. The next step is to implement a beryllium diaphram.
It's generally accepted that it doesn't get better than acoustic elegance woofers. They're VERY good.
The drawback is that you might be waiting over a year for it to finally arrive.
It was never yet available. It will be available soon. It's a group buy thing, but not a one-time group buy. Just patiently see how things unfold
Myself? No, it won't QUITE be an open baffle. I was really inspired by Keyser's build here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/192737-2-way-waveguide-cardioid-like-4.html#post2672996
Except I want to add in a (very low level) rear horn to balance out sound power response. I don't know what to expect but hopefully it's good
When looking at woofers, rather than taking the time to sim them out, you can get a fairly close approximation of the useful extension in a sealed enclosure by observing the Qts and Fs. You'll find that most of those drivers with the insanely large magnets, come with very low Qts, this is a common correlation. The very powerful motor structure provides greater efficiency in the higher frequency range, but sacrifices efficiency in the lower frequency range.
Try this trick:
Take the driver Fs, and divide by Qts. The resulting number is about the lowest frequency the driver can play "flat to" in a sealed box. That's roughly where the plot will start to fall below the fundamental for equal input power. Another neat trick- when using the "trick" above, an octave below that result is about the lowest the driver will play flat to in a vented enclosure, and also correlates to about the -6dB point for the sealed box option (varies with alignment).
Generally speaking, a vented box will buy an octave lower x-over point to the subs, and in a system that is going to have subs integrated, venting will get most of the "uber-sensitive/big-motor" pro sound drivers down to a reasonable blending point with a sub. If staying sealed is an absolute requirement for you, then you'll probably be forced to go with a driver with smaller motor, and lower sensitivity to reach the subs. I honestly think vented is the way to go here.
The tricks above can save a lot of time entering driver specs and simulating every last driver.
Mt vote is for the RCF L12L750 in a vented box of around 0.5 - 1ft^3 , tuned in the 60-100hz range depending on room response and taste.
Eric
I am only really having issues on whether or not to go sealed based on crossing over to a subwoofer. And of course, let's not forget ease of design and construction with sealed If I use an active crossover and EQ with time alignment, then it will not matter so much whether it's a sealed box or ported? Sorry for confusion... If I go ported enclosure, then I have a lot more options for woofers. Thanks for everyone's input. It's needed!
I had never thought about using that website's forum, as I have no plan in buying some of his speakers or plans I guess I felt it was rude to hang around if I ain't gunna buy nuthin'....
If I use an active crossover and EQ with time alignment, then it will not matter so much whether it's a sealed box or ported? Sorry for confusion... If I go ported enclosure, then I have a lot more options for woofers. Thanks for everyone's input. It's needed! I had never thought about using that website's forum, as I have no plan in buying some of his speakers or plans
I guess I felt it was rude to hang around if I ain't gunna buy nuthin'.... 
I am only really having issues on whether or not to go sealed based on crossing over to a subwoofer. And of course, let's not forget ease of design and construction with sealed
I had never thought about using that website's forum, as I have no plan in buying some of his speakers or plans
I'm pretty much struggling with the same issue. I thought sealed=lower group delay and easier to integrate with subwoofers.
I recommend running some simulations to see the effects of different alignments and tuning on group delay for a handful of drivers. It's a function of more than just "vented or not vented." It depends on driver characteristics, box size etc. Depending on box size, it's possible to have sealed alignments using more relaxed drivers (necessary to reach down to the desired x-over in sealed) produce just as much or more group delay than vented alignments with uber-damped drivers in well thought out boxes.
Also, if i recall, if it applies (I seem to recall mention of using DSP), that should be something that can be corrected for actively anyways.
Eric
Also, if i recall, if it applies (I seem to recall mention of using DSP), that should be something that can be corrected for actively anyways.
Eric
Looking at vented boxes the group delay didn't become as much of a problem as I thought it would. It differs max ~6-7ms compared to CSS TRIO12 in a sealed enclosure.
And the woofers you guys have mentioned in this thread all look very similar in WinISD, so which has best mid-range performance?
And the woofers you guys have mentioned in this thread all look very similar in WinISD, so which has best mid-range performance?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
With the RCFL12L750 and the CSS TRIO12 which I intend to use for subwoofers.
The RCF is quite a bit above my budget, but if it really is a kickass driver and it's worth every penny I might be able to push my budget a bit by eating black pudding only for a month
P).Will the differences in group delay be fixable with a minidsp?
What is recommended crossover between tweeter and the RCF if going with Celestions CDX1-1745 and SEOS-12 or 18sound XT1086?
For some reason the pictures didn't work... Let's try again.
Would this work?
http://piclair.com/data/umthg.jpg
http://piclair.com/data/m4vc2.jpg
Would this work?
http://piclair.com/data/umthg.jpg
http://piclair.com/data/m4vc2.jpg
The real issue you'll run into, is that the CSS Trio 12 in a vented box won't keep up with the RCF driver at high SPLs. It will compress and distort from the hundreds of watts where the RCF is getting maybe 5-10 watts
Now if you throw the Trio 12 in a folded horn, results could be nice.
While the answer is yes, the real answer is that it's simply not an issue. Anechoic group delay is simply not what you hear in rooms, with crossovers between different drivers/speakers. What you hear in rooms is vastly different and boils down strongly to the frequency response linearity. It sounds a bit hard to fathom, but group delay is mathematically simply the 2nd derivative of frequency response. At bass frequencies in rooms, that also means your group delay is not at the mercy of the sub, but at the mercy of the room. It's really easy to get caught up in the graphs and try to interpret them, but it might be a total waste of your time.
I don't know enough about the Celestion to comment.
Now if you throw the Trio 12 in a folded horn, results could be nice.
While the answer is yes, the real answer is that it's simply not an issue. Anechoic group delay is simply not what you hear in rooms, with crossovers between different drivers/speakers. What you hear in rooms is vastly different and boils down strongly to the frequency response linearity. It sounds a bit hard to fathom, but group delay is mathematically simply the 2nd derivative of frequency response. At bass frequencies in rooms, that also means your group delay is not at the mercy of the sub, but at the mercy of the room. It's really easy to get caught up in the graphs and try to interpret them, but it might be a total waste of your time.
I don't know enough about the Celestion to comment.
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I don't have space for a folded bass horn, not in my room. The plan was to use the subwoofers as stands for the Econowaves. I might be able to stretch the volume of the subwoofer cabinets to maybe 70-80 litres if the Econowaves don't get any bigger than ~30l.
Regarding the tweeters, the Celestion is about half the price of the DE250. If I go with the DE250 I must spend less on the woofers.
If we say like this, vented or closed, which 10-12" driver do you think suits me best? I don't need to play 120dB in my 16sqm room. It must not be more expensive than the RCF L12L750 which costs €250/each.
Regarding the tweeters, the Celestion is about half the price of the DE250. If I go with the DE250 I must spend less on the woofers.
If we say like this, vented or closed, which 10-12" driver do you think suits me best? I don't need to play 120dB in my 16sqm room. It must not be more expensive than the RCF L12L750 which costs €250/each.
Yes, they may be really good but they cost twice as much as the Celestion. Is it really worth it? I would have to spend less money on the woofers.
I would also need another waveguide, which costs more I guess?
By the way, I see they also sell Eighteen Sound 12 ND 930 for a good price.
If that woofer would be just as good say any of the other ones mentioned earlier in this thread then I might go with this woofer and the 1.4" tweeter?
That 18Sound 12ND930 modeled well in a 25l sealed box with some LT EQ to bring f3 to ~90Hz instead of 165Hz.
Would you suggest that is a good idea?
If that woofer would be just as good say any of the other ones mentioned earlier in this thread then I might go with this woofer and the 1.4" tweeter?
That 18Sound 12ND930 modeled well in a 25l sealed box with some LT EQ to bring f3 to ~90Hz instead of 165Hz.
Would you suggest that is a good idea?
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Very low Q .2.. What audiphiles will say about such EQ??..
I currently using EQed 15nd730 in 2way crossed at 666 or 800 or <1000 dependently of drivers.. New horns are in process..
There is nothing more permanent than temporary sometimes I'll go 3way..
I like 730's FR without peaks at top region. 12nd930 seems similar at this point..
I currently using EQed 15nd730 in 2way crossed at 666 or 800 or <1000 dependently of drivers.. New horns are in process..
There is nothing more permanent than temporary
sometimes I'll go 3way..I like 730's FR without peaks at top region. 12nd930 seems similar at this point..
Then you may want larger, more robust, more sensitive drivers than the budget minded, but otherwise fine Trio 12. The JBL W15GTI for example, or even a Mach V UXL-18 in 3 cu ft sealed.
If you want to use the Trio 12, consider purchasing like five of them, two below the main speakers, and three around the room. That should take care of the mismatched headroom issue as well. I just don't see the point of having mains with limitless headroom, mated to subs that can't keep up.
That's not a good plan. The goal of subwoofers should be to address room modes via placement, but that's impossible if they're just part of your stereo mains.
What about the DIY Sound group regular size tweeter? Costs less than the de250 but performs better.
My reservation with the celestion is that I don't know how low it can play. my gut tells me it'll be limited to around 1.2khz. Erich H's tweeter can play down to at least 900hz and maybe lower.
Well I still recommend the one I recommended earlier, as the impedance graph and frequency response graph show very good performance. It's less expensive than the RCF as far as I can tell, too, which is a nice bonus.
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