hey tinitus
i must say, whoever is saying that, it is not objectively true. I work a lot with good quality PA speakers because of my job. It's pretty different cause you have a lot more dynamics, but you miss a whole lot of low bass , wich is not neglectable , especially if you listen to modern music. You almost never find a PA 12" wich goes below 50- 40 hz -3db, and that's a lot of missing stuff
+ no point having a high dynamics midbass driver if your other drivers are regular hi fi drivers.
The PD driver linked to (PD is a very good brand btw) doesn't go lower than 55hz -3db, and believe me you hear the difference. It's different if you're able to equalize. But equalizing a Bass reflex is not an easy task.
this is the maximum compromise i'd accept going for a PA driver for bass duties :
http://www.eighteensound.it/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=259
the price is not cheap then, (around 300 E) but you may find similar drivers priced more sensibly. This 18sound driver is THE bass killer though.
[EDIT : similar driver found at B&C for 190 E, with 95 db sensivity :B&C 15PS100
i must say, whoever is saying that, it is not objectively true. I work a lot with good quality PA speakers because of my job. It's pretty different cause you have a lot more dynamics, but you miss a whole lot of low bass , wich is not neglectable , especially if you listen to modern music. You almost never find a PA 12" wich goes below 50- 40 hz -3db, and that's a lot of missing stuff
+ no point having a high dynamics midbass driver if your other drivers are regular hi fi drivers.
The PD driver linked to (PD is a very good brand btw) doesn't go lower than 55hz -3db, and believe me you hear the difference. It's different if you're able to equalize. But equalizing a Bass reflex is not an easy task.
this is the maximum compromise i'd accept going for a PA driver for bass duties :
http://www.eighteensound.it/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=259
the price is not cheap then, (around 300 E) but you may find similar drivers priced more sensibly. This 18sound driver is THE bass killer though.
[EDIT : similar driver found at B&C for 190 E, with 95 db sensivity :B&C 15PS100
Nemophyle said:
As far as that goes, for the money, I believe the good ole' 18" Peavey Low Rider is tough to beat. I've also modeled it pretty extensively for sealed + LT with very good results (especially with 1 per side), although with a sealed F3 around 60 Hz in 4.5 cubic feet (127.4 liters), it'll need quite a bit more EQ than woofers geared toward domestic applications.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-301
I apologize fore my all too subjective opinion ... at the moment I am just very tired of polite hifi woofers that tries to get down low with rather poor and blurred result or running "out of steam"... I suppose just now I am too biased to do this, trying to reflect on what Sypher is asking fore
Sure, I am actually going fore 18" PA woofers ... I have thought of trying subs, but thats just not me either
MIVOC AW3000 is a rather cheap 12" (48EUR), surely not the best, but it does ok and easy to xo
But there are many different ways to look at it ... some people are satisfied with a small 2way with a 5" woofer, or even OB with a vintage driver from an old TV
Sure, I am actually going fore 18" PA woofers ... I have thought of trying subs, but thats just not me either
MIVOC AW3000 is a rather cheap 12" (48EUR), surely not the best, but it does ok and easy to xo
But there are many different ways to look at it ... some people are satisfied with a small 2way with a 5" woofer, or even OB with a vintage driver from an old TV
Sure sure, it looks very nice but is really only avarage build quality at a high cost ... but could sound very nice though, although I wouldnt use that kind of money on such a driver ... and keep in mind that their measurement and maybe also specs are not the most reliable
Just fore the record ... SPH275C in 50liter is actually very very close to the 10LW30/N ... they reach the same lows, the only differense being that the Beyma starts to rolloff very shallow a bit higher, but at the same time with a little more SPL
Reality can very well prove much different than any theory, but it seems that both drivers are very close to reaching 35hz with -6db ... but ofcourse they will sound a bit different ... different materials and Q values and such
I will be silent now, and I hope others can help you to a decision
Just fore the record ... SPH275C in 50liter is actually very very close to the 10LW30/N ... they reach the same lows, the only differense being that the Beyma starts to rolloff very shallow a bit higher, but at the same time with a little more SPL
Reality can very well prove much different than any theory, but it seems that both drivers are very close to reaching 35hz with -6db ... but ofcourse they will sound a bit different ... different materials and Q values and such
I will be silent now, and I hope others can help you to a decision
ideally you would like to test both to see what is more to your likings.
I advise you to go to an hi fi shop and to listen to an high quality hi fi speaker with big hi fi drivers. Since you're already familiar with PA sound, see if it's up to your likings or not
they are many different schools in this regard, as said by tinitus. And i don't believe that making a compromise between two of them is a good idea, especially if you don't really know what you want.
I found myself to be quite satisfied by the sound of low sensivity drivers, even if i admit that there is something different. Hell in one of the club i worked with, and that's a pretty common thing , they have low sensivity sub bass driver to cover the 20-60 hz frequencies. Of course we're not talking about the same drivers here, more heavy duty 15" sub bass drivers still reaching 90db sensivity, but still.
Dont underestimate the power of your mind into making you believe and prefer things unrelated to the real reproduction of sound. I'm not saying this is bad, but the only way to deal with it is to make your own opinion. dont listen to subjective opinions of people on forums ( ) but rather go make your own.
Since there is since an unknown factor here (big bass Hi fi driver with mid sensivity) you gotta know what you think about it.
And dont forget that driver integration into the system is at least as important
I advise you to go to an hi fi shop and to listen to an high quality hi fi speaker with big hi fi drivers. Since you're already familiar with PA sound, see if it's up to your likings or not
they are many different schools in this regard, as said by tinitus. And i don't believe that making a compromise between two of them is a good idea, especially if you don't really know what you want.
I found myself to be quite satisfied by the sound of low sensivity drivers, even if i admit that there is something different. Hell in one of the club i worked with, and that's a pretty common thing , they have low sensivity sub bass driver to cover the 20-60 hz frequencies. Of course we're not talking about the same drivers here, more heavy duty 15" sub bass drivers still reaching 90db sensivity, but still.
Dont underestimate the power of your mind into making you believe and prefer things unrelated to the real reproduction of sound. I'm not saying this is bad, but the only way to deal with it is to make your own opinion. dont listen to subjective opinions of people on forums (
) but rather go make your own. Since there is since an unknown factor here (big bass Hi fi driver with mid sensivity) you gotta know what you think about it.
And dont forget that driver integration into the system is at least as important
Hi,
Elipson use PHL driver
Prame use monacor PA speakers
and many more other exemples (studiolab kit with a beyma 12")
So what is still remaining to listen to in the 100% "hifi" world?
B&W and Focal but the speakers aren't available for sale.
Does anyone know which speakers are used in the elipson 2220?
It looks like nomex
pics:
http://www.hollandlink.nl/elipson/
Elipson use PHL driver
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Prame use monacor PA speakers
and many more other exemples (studiolab kit with a beyma 12")
So what is still remaining to listen to in the 100% "hifi" world?
B&W and Focal but the speakers aren't available for sale.
Does anyone know which speakers are used in the elipson 2220?
It looks like nomex
pics:
http://www.hollandlink.nl/elipson/
Yes, you posted an example of the transmission line. For the SPH-275C driver it'd certainly end up much more than 50L though so will probably be a bit large. It can be simulated with software on this page (which can be bought for 25USD);
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Models/MathCad_Models.html
I have yet to get it but am hoping for good output to 30Hz.
I thought the Monacor products were generally "good value"? It looks like a nicely built driver from what I've seen with the cast basket, large spider, carbon cone etc. I see it for £71.45 delivered, doesn't seem a bad deal.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Models/MathCad_Models.html
I have yet to get it but am hoping for good output to 30Hz.
I thought the Monacor products were generally "good value"? It looks like a nicely built driver from what I've seen with the cast basket, large spider, carbon cone etc. I see it for £71.45 delivered, doesn't seem a bad deal.
This is where I've seen it:
http://www.soundsec.com/store/en/view_product/2/427/
I have used them before successfully, though I have been waiting quite a while for my current order. Best price for it if your in the UK I guess.
http://www.soundsec.com/store/en/view_product/2/427/
I have used them before successfully, though I have been waiting quite a while for my current order. Best price for it if your in the UK I guess.
Bmm electronics is in netherlands, it's good for VATS.
Monacor drivers are not especially interresting, nor especially expensive, they are just well priced. Their kevlar series are very good, very linear fr with very controlled breakup.
On the other hand they have quite basic motor (good but basic, no shorting rings, sometimes you get extended pole piece). They have distortion performances along the lines of SEAS and old peerless drivers.
The problem is that they're beginning to be quite old. The last time they updated their line it must have been 7 years ago, and most manufacturers proposing good drivers like them have updated their line since then, most of them quite recently (SEAS, Scanspeak, Peerless). It's generally the problem of OEM's like Monacor and Hivi, they had excellent drivers for the money when they came out, now they're beginning to be
I wouldn't buy them for 6" midbass now,cause even if they're quite good, manufacturers such as seas and peerless recently released lines of drivers with better motors and baskets for approximately the same prices.
Unfortunately peerless doesnt do 10" midbasses, and seas didn't yet update their big drivers, so monacor is still a good alternative.
But for 80 E more you have a scanspeak driver with 4mm more xmax , a way better motor better finish and better basket, and for approximately the same price, (around 150 E) you have two 8" peerless wich are almost as good as scans (+ you have more surface then, so more punch and less distortion)
Monacor drivers are not especially interresting, nor especially expensive, they are just well priced. Their kevlar series are very good, very linear fr with very controlled breakup.
On the other hand they have quite basic motor (good but basic, no shorting rings, sometimes you get extended pole piece). They have distortion performances along the lines of SEAS and old peerless drivers.
The problem is that they're beginning to be quite old. The last time they updated their line it must have been 7 years ago, and most manufacturers proposing good drivers like them have updated their line since then, most of them quite recently (SEAS, Scanspeak, Peerless). It's generally the problem of OEM's like Monacor and Hivi, they had excellent drivers for the money when they came out, now they're beginning to be
I wouldn't buy them for 6" midbass now,cause even if they're quite good, manufacturers such as seas and peerless recently released lines of drivers with better motors and baskets for approximately the same prices.
Unfortunately peerless doesnt do 10" midbasses, and seas didn't yet update their big drivers, so monacor is still a good alternative.
But for 80 E more you have a scanspeak driver with 4mm more xmax , a way better motor better finish and better basket, and for approximately the same price, (around 150 E) you have two 8" peerless wich are almost as good as scans (+ you have more surface then, so more punch and less distortion)
Well there is no "magic" in the superior dynamics of PA drivers. They have a lot of surface for the frequency they have to reproduce . the "bass extension vs SD lend them to need quite less excursion to reach the same SPL for a given Fs. This leads to less power compression.
Also PA drivers have quite large voice coils, and are optimized so voice coils heats the less as possible.
Recent hi fi drivers have been optimized in this regard (venting under the spider for example), but they're still far from being as good as PA drivers.
But 2 hi fi drivers will move less than one, and then heat less and compress less, and so have better dynamics and less distortion.
First with two 8" drivers you will have approximately 440 cm² of SD versus 350 for a regular 10".
Then given a peerless 8" and a monacor 10" have the same voice coil diameter, and the peerless is vented under the spider where the monacor isnt, you will have way better heat dissipation with the 2 peerless, so better dynamics and less distortion, you can believe me on that.
OTOH, you will still have more power compression than with a PA driver, but you can't have it all
EDIT: The peerless have a 30mm diameter voice coil where the monacor has a 50mm one. But this doesn't really affect what i said, only by a small margin.
I did fit my 2 8" peerless in a 70 l enclosure, and they have -6db around 35hz theoretically, 25 in room, with an underdamped alignment so bass isnt too powerfull in room.
Also PA drivers have quite large voice coils, and are optimized so voice coils heats the less as possible.
Recent hi fi drivers have been optimized in this regard (venting under the spider for example), but they're still far from being as good as PA drivers.
But 2 hi fi drivers will move less than one, and then heat less and compress less, and so have better dynamics and less distortion.
First with two 8" drivers you will have approximately 440 cm² of SD versus 350 for a regular 10".
Then given a peerless 8" and a monacor 10" have the same voice coil diameter, and the peerless is vented under the spider where the monacor isnt, you will have way better heat dissipation with the 2 peerless, so better dynamics and less distortion, you can believe me on that.
OTOH, you will still have more power compression than with a PA driver, but you can't have it all
EDIT: The peerless have a 30mm diameter voice coil where the monacor has a 50mm one. But this doesn't really affect what i said, only by a small margin.
I did fit my 2 8" peerless in a 70 l enclosure, and they have -6db around 35hz theoretically, 25 in room, with an underdamped alignment so bass isnt too powerfull in room.
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