I thought all of the above mistakes were normal....it used to be so in standard hi-fi.
Ok thanks, that's what I was expecting, all good.
Dan.
Not in the "standard HiFi" I know and would consider "standard HiFi" which would be Technics, Panasonic, Sony, Denon,...
You know, the stuff you plug in and that works just as predicted with any piece of standard HiFi you ever connect it to. Unlike "High End" HiFi of today, where great strides have to be made to find a proper mains cable to not upset the machine.
Yes, that kinda stuff that I have fixed and immediately heard millions of.
You usually don't have to look to hard to see 'mistakes' in pcb layout....traces inadequate and mutually dependent power and earthing arrangements, power reticulation big loop areas etc.
Physical layout wiring errors including uncontrolled loop areas, wiring running against magnetic materials etc.
Sure, they meet spec sheet, but don't expect wonders.
I own a handful of these kinds of amps from way back to relatively recent....they sound fine enough with simple program at lower levels but run out of puff and control just when the fun starts and they are not low distortion..0.05% or worse is typical rating for such modern surround receivers.
I have a 10yo Integra surround receiver, Onkyo's higher quality pretty typical receiver and it's quite sensitive to AC power and IEC supply cable.
Dan.
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My outgassing pigments are too dilute to be seen, but are all too detectable, in enclosed spaces.
I won't buy another Onkyo receiver.
I now suspect there's an internal timer, activated when purchased, to burn up the video board. The day after the warranty expires.
I believe that called " Good enough for who it is for designing ." Then the power supplies of which you speak are left rather wanting ?
Max, you make a lot of sense, but some here cannot see it.
My first real experience with line cords happened perhaps 25 years ago at a CES. A demonstration between two AC line cords made a distinct audio difference, and the demo was run by someone I had previously worked for (with), the guy that started 'Crystal Clear' direct disc records and who made many good quality direct disc vinyls back in the late 70's and eighties.
The test seemed kind of 'exotic' because only a line cord exchange was involved, but there was still a distinct difference. Most of us just could not abide that a line cord, even if it made a distinct change, should cost so much, so we mostly ignored the demo. I do think that the line cord was priced for obvious 'sonic performance' rather than actual manufacturing cost. Of course, this is not always the case, some line cords are hard and expensive to make.
Over the years I have looked into line cords, tried line cord comparisons, and found some better than others. I also found that 'augmenting' line cords with chokes, extra capacitance, etc could also change the sonic character of the sound. Whatever works is my motto.
My first real experience with line cords happened perhaps 25 years ago at a CES. A demonstration between two AC line cords made a distinct audio difference, and the demo was run by someone I had previously worked for (with), the guy that started 'Crystal Clear' direct disc records and who made many good quality direct disc vinyls back in the late 70's and eighties.
The test seemed kind of 'exotic' because only a line cord exchange was involved, but there was still a distinct difference. Most of us just could not abide that a line cord, even if it made a distinct change, should cost so much, so we mostly ignored the demo. I do think that the line cord was priced for obvious 'sonic performance' rather than actual manufacturing cost. Of course, this is not always the case, some line cords are hard and expensive to make.
Over the years I have looked into line cords, tried line cord comparisons, and found some better than others. I also found that 'augmenting' line cords with chokes, extra capacitance, etc could also change the sonic character of the sound. Whatever works is my motto.
Well, not directly, I just did not buy the line cord. The very idea that line cords made much difference was new in those days, and it was a bit 'over the top' at the time. Today, I would not be at all surprised. A few years later, I worked with the same guy when he started 'Clarity' recordings, rebuilding his mike preamps, etc. Unfortunately, he left vinyl behind, and he was never as successful as he was previously. I lost all of my 'Crystal Clear' vinyl in the 1991 firestorm, and I certainly wish that I still had a few favorites from that time.
I have not heard the large changes others have, from changing power cables.
But I was present years ago, to hear an exchange between the Krell rep, and a salesman, who wanted to keep demonstrating the big amps with Wireworld power cables.
The rep agreed the cables made the amps sound different. (I couldn't hear it). But maintained his position: the amps were designed to work with the inexpensive looking power cords they were supplied with, and would not be displayed with boutique power cables.
I ended up buying 3 Wireworld cables, when the store was no longer carrying that line, 2 Auroras, and a Stratus, I think.
Still can't hear a difference, but they look nice, and appear well made. They feed some power bars, work well still, after a dozen years. They were well worth the $80 I paid for the 3 of them.
Since they retailed near 350$ CDN each on average then, I believe they are phenomenally marked up for retail over wholesale cost.
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My limited experience with power cords is that stick with commonly available but of the thickest gauge that makes sense. Generally improvements are in the lower frequencies, probably around the line power frequency. This is what I did when selecting a cord for an active speaker. I wanted to go class 2 certification, but could not find an existing class 2 cord with the conductor thickness I wanted, so I had to make the change.
So you were sceptical of the idea then but are not now.
See how the drip drip drip of marketing can change a belief.
Reality has not changed at all, only you.
Thanks John, I relate what and others find in order that others may learn.
I have a Belkin power switcher/filter/conditioner box that came with a 2m very heavy IEC cable.
This cable makes a distinct difference to the sound of anything that it supplies....might be the 'secret sauce' of this Belkin product line.
The question is why do some of us regard these concepts as being exotic ?.....the answer is that these concepts are something new to those trained (hypnotised) by study of conventional 'limited' theory.
I don't find these concepts to be exotic in the slightest anymore, to me it really is the best fun being able to walk up to any system and change the sound at will....and for the better.
The outrageous retail and direct prices of much 'audiophile accessory/tweaks' kinda spoils the party.
There is development time and manufacturing costs to be paid for, but some of these products are straight out "taking the pi**"...and are to be avoided.
Yes, mine too.
Dan.
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That must be the conventional 'limited' theory which put men on the Moon, keeps many people alive and enables us all to communicate with each other. Of course, this conventional 'limited' theory is most roundly criticised by people who mostly (there may be rare exceptions) don't actually understand it, and regard their ignorance as a more advanced form of knowledge.Max Headroom said:
Let us assume for the moment that mains cable sensitivity is proven; it will then be found that the explanation is firmly within the domain of current physics etc. It is foolish arrogance in the extreme to believe that audio enthusiasts playing with cables will find new physics which has eluded CERN, Fermilab, SLAC etc.
This thread was supposed to be about laughing at snake oil, not celebrating it. There are other threads for those who wish to develop physics beyond the Standard Model.
Quote the full statement instead of part of it, it was clear what I was referring too. We were disusing cables not capacitors.
I think Max's is getting old, forgetting my name... mixing cable dielectrics with cap dialectics...
No solder resist because of ablation etc.
Got a NASA and a ESP wiring and PCB guide somewhere.
I am not dissing 'conventional' theory, but I am suggesting that it does not fully describe the likes of BQP, my filters, and indeed the effects of power cables.
At the frequencies of interest (50/60Hz) a power cable could be described as a four terminal capacitor with parasitic inductance and resistance.
The dielectric (insulation) qualities will influence, and I find this a factor differentiating otherwise essentially identical power cables.
So let's talk physics....how does a ferrite bead filter work, I mean really work, not just overview description, and what secondary effects are to be expected ?.
Only the fool laughs at that which he does not perceive or understand.
Dan.
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