I am really grateful guys for all your input and all the conversations going on here...a lot LOT of info and very interesting topics to talk. I'm a little bit confused now as I am not sure anymore in which direction I should go with my diy speakers. But please continue on this as all this conversation is very interesting.
Guys I have an idea now...what do you think if I would build Open Baffle the ones which nicoch58 suggested with eminence alpha15 and FF85WK and later on if I will not like Open Baffle sound I will do a box for is ?
Also will I get better overall sound with that diy speaker than from my KEF LS50 ? Even if you don't know...should it be better or not ?
Is FF85WK same full range as FF85WKen ? Because I am bit confused here.
Guys I have so many questions in my mind but I need learning it step by step because I will go crazy
Thank you all and please continue this very informative thread.
Also BIG thanks to nicoch58 for his input and proposition.
Nicoch58 can you tell me a little bit more about this open baffle which you suggested ? How you like it if you have that pair of speakers ? How they compare to some expensive speakers on the market if you have any experience ? And how low they can go in HZ ?
I hope you all had great New Year Eve !
Rafael
Guys I have an idea now...what do you think if I would build Open Baffle the ones which nicoch58 suggested with eminence alpha15 and FF85WK and later on if I will not like Open Baffle sound I will do a box for is ?
Also will I get better overall sound with that diy speaker than from my KEF LS50 ? Even if you don't know...should it be better or not ?
Is FF85WK same full range as FF85WKen ? Because I am bit confused here.
Guys I have so many questions in my mind but I need learning it step by step because I will go crazy
Thank you all and please continue this very informative thread.
Also BIG thanks to nicoch58 for his input and proposition.
Nicoch58 can you tell me a little bit more about this open baffle which you suggested ? How you like it if you have that pair of speakers ? How they compare to some expensive speakers on the market if you have any experience ? And how low they can go in HZ ?
I hope you all had great New Year Eve !
Rafael
Analog systems with DSP
I have recently demo'd a DSP (used for the crossover & Eq) combined with 4 channels of superb DAC which was tested in a very high end vinyl / class A amps / quad electrostatics plus self powered subs....
The bottom line is that the £12K digital system matched or bettered the £45,000 / £50,000 analog system.
We are all on the cusp of being able to add the major benefits of DSP without any of the downsides.
The cost of high quality DAC / A to D has been dropping fast over the last few years and the quality of DSP has been rising....A perfect storm!
This new digital audio tech is rapidly developing, 2106 will see DSP emerge as the audio panacea by any definition....Watch this space!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Dave, you are very welcome to come over for a visit, we stay close to Cambridge which is beautiful and we are less than an hour from central London by train and there are a few very nice B&B 's close by.
I have recently demo'd a DSP (used for the crossover & Eq) combined with 4 channels of superb DAC which was tested in a very high end vinyl / class A amps / quad electrostatics plus self powered subs....
The bottom line is that the £12K digital system matched or bettered the £45,000 / £50,000 analog system.
We are all on the cusp of being able to add the major benefits of DSP without any of the downsides.
The cost of high quality DAC / A to D has been dropping fast over the last few years and the quality of DSP has been rising....A perfect storm!
This new digital audio tech is rapidly developing, 2106 will see DSP emerge as the audio panacea by any definition....Watch this space!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Dave, you are very welcome to come over for a visit, we stay close to Cambridge which is beautiful and we are less than an hour from central London by train and there are a few very nice B&B 's close by.
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It will work. Martin's comment when i asked him about the earlier FF85k was that with the lower sensitivity it was an opportunity to get more bass out of the baffle.
Not having heard the KEF i cannot say. It will be different. And then there is the question of what makes "better". Speakers are compromises, and better is most likely a set of compromises that better suits you.
No. An FF85wKeN starts as an FF85wk. Then treatments are added that work to address some deficiencies (most notably better damping at the surround cone interface, and a touch of ringing in the dustcap). In between these steps the driver is EnABLed (most noticable visibly by the spots) and pairs are matched (T/S, but most importantly sensitivity). No one knows why EnABL really works, but there is no question it does (althou there are lots who have no experience with them that say it can't possibly do so). It is not to make them pretty but that is a nice side-effect (it can be done such that the treatment is near invisible)
A pr of FF85wk are under $90 USD from Madisound. A pr of FF85wKeN from me for $170. I just did some research for a fellow in Greece and the prices in Europe between stock and treated are closer (and given the low weight there are relatively cheap shipping options).
Fostex FF85WK Size 83x83mm
I don't know if that has VAT on it, but VAT needs to be paid on imported drivers.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fostex-ff85wk-3-full-range/
Pics of my personal pair of FF85wKeN. The light cone allows me some room to change the cone colour (part of the non-EnABL) treatment, these coloured to better match the solid Yew uFonkenSET Bernie built for me. Standard is natural grey cone with near matching grey spots.
The treatment can be diyed, there is lots of information here on the forum, and i am happy to help (no secrets), but it does require practice to do well (by now i have done thousands of driver).
dave
Thanx. My home base when i am in the UK (if i make it) will be in Yorkshire.
dave
If you have enough room to get at least 1.8 meters behind your speakers then you can get a great sound from a simple two way open baffle like the one you linked to.
OB is generally the lowest cost /simplest design way into good DIY sound, and you can easily sell them for what it costs to build them (or a wee profit!) to your mates if you want to try something else later.
I have built a several open baffle designs with the Manger driver above 400Hz and various bass / mid drivers below 400Hz, twin 8 inch Seas Excel, Volt 10 inch, Beyma, Precision Devices and PHL 12 or 15 inch.
I used the DEQX to design and control the speakers and at the time (2003 to 2008) I loved the sound of them all but time and technology never stands still and I the system I am assembling now outperforms anything I have ever built in the past.
If you do build the open baffle cabinets it would be great to compare them to a sealed box 15 inch and small full range....
As ever, try before you buy!
All the best
Derek.
Attachments
The systems i deal with are much more typically less than the sales tax on your system (12% here), and provide very high user satisfaction (ie Frugal-phile™)
But DSP, DACs are getting better, cheaper all the time (they are after all "computer" tech). At sometime in the future they will likely become all but ubiquitous. At this point we are still looking at big finned Cadillacs as far as DSP goes.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
The MJK passive baffles we built in play at the 7th annual VI diyFEST.
More: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/club...ver-island-diyfest-2010-a-14.html#post2281225
Note: Chris has a surplus conference table top at his work which we cut in half for the baffles.
dave
More: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/club...ver-island-diyfest-2010-a-14.html#post2281225
Note: Chris has a surplus conference table top at his work which we cut in half for the baffles.
dave
Depends on what they listen for… sometimes more readily than an audiophile as they are not concentrating. Sometimes the indications were quite dramatic and completely non-verbal -- a clearly evident change in body language.
dave
It will work. Martin's comment when i asked him about the earlier FF85k was that with the lower sensitivity it was an opportunity to get more bass out of the baffle.
Not having heard the KEF i cannot say. It will be different. And then there is the question of what makes "better". Speakers are compromises, and better is most likely a set of compromises that better suits you.
No. An FF85wKeN starts as an FF85wk. Then treatments are added that work to address some deficiencies (most notably better damping at the surround cone interface, and a touch of ringing in the dustcap). In between these steps the driver is EnABLed (most noticable visibly by the spots) and pairs are matched (T/S, but most importantly sensitivity). No one knows why EnABL really works, but there is no question it does (althou there are lots who have no experience with them that say it can't possibly do so). It is not to make them pretty but that is a nice side-effect (it can be done such that the treatment is near invisible)
A pr of FF85wk are under $90 USD from Madisound. A pr of FF85wKeN from me for $170. I just did some research for a fellow in Greece and the prices in Europe between stock and treated are closer (and given the low weight there are relatively cheap shipping options).
Fostex FF85WK Size 83x83mm
I don't know if that has VAT on it, but VAT needs to be paid on imported drivers.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fostex-ff85wk-3-full-range/
Pics of my personal pair of FF85wKeN. The light cone allows me some room to change the cone colour (part of the non-EnABL) treatment, these coloured to better match the solid Yew uFonkenSET Bernie built for me. Standard is natural grey cone with near matching grey spots.
The treatment can be diyed, there is lots of information here on the forum, and i am happy to help (no secrets), but it does require practice to do well (by now i have done thousands of driver).
dave
Thanks Dave, another portion of clearing my mind, thanks.
So it mean as well that FF85WKen sing better than standard version right ? If I would buy a pair from you would I need to pay for Vat as well ? Also I have one very important question...because what I miss sometimes with my KEF LS50 is that they do not sing loudly enough for me...ok they can sing loudly enough but it is not easy for them and you can feel and hear that...I jus would like to get "bigger" and louder sound without loosing details image speed and all great things which have now (I know that before I will not compare them myself I will not know that) but most importantly the question is - will I can play louder and bigger with FF85WKen in top frequencies than with LS50 ?
Best Regards,
Rafael
Yes they sound better than stock driver. Parcel Force will collect VAT. In a FAST FF85 will be able to play louder than if not high passed but as to whether it exceeds the KEF i do not know.
When the KEF runs out of steam are you sure it is the KEFs and not the amp you are using clipping?
dave
sieniek,
Key is find out if you want old way and accept acoustic output waveform is not same as the played track because of amplitude+phase+timing colour/distortion, or you want more modern system that can correct so a acoustic output waveform can be very close to played track.
Thought is your LS50 is a pretty precise speaker inside it pass band so if you don't like its sound go uncorrected FF85WK or MA drivers way and if you like your LS50 sound it could be improved add a modern DSP and woofer.
If you want a speaker that output the signal its presented at input think you shall go visit Overkill Audio and take LS50 with you it will probably be very learn full.
What planet10 have on the shelves want us to know is the best therefor says a uncorrected FF85WK subjective killed a 10F/8424 and that TC9FD is just a TV speaker because Vifa print that as application solution on the datasheet. Then if we point him to measurement proofs he argue it can't be measured but two minutes later he argue about bad DACs and that info is based on measurements, so when measurements suit his needs they seems good enough and use full.
Key is find out if you want old way and accept acoustic output waveform is not same as the played track because of amplitude+phase+timing colour/distortion, or you want more modern system that can correct so a acoustic output waveform can be very close to played track.
Thought is your LS50 is a pretty precise speaker inside it pass band so if you don't like its sound go uncorrected FF85WK or MA drivers way and if you like your LS50 sound it could be improved add a modern DSP and woofer.
If you want a speaker that output the signal its presented at input think you shall go visit Overkill Audio and take LS50 with you it will probably be very learn full.
What planet10 have on the shelves want us to know is the best therefor says a uncorrected FF85WK subjective killed a 10F/8424 and that TC9FD is just a TV speaker because Vifa print that as application solution on the datasheet. Then if we point him to measurement proofs he argue it can't be measured but two minutes later he argue about bad DACs and that info is based on measurements, so when measurements suit his needs they seems good enough and use full.
If you have enough room to get at least 1.8 meters behind your speakers then you can get a great sound from a simple two way open baffle like the one you linked to.
OB is generally the lowest cost /simplest design way into good DIY sound, and you can easily sell them for what it costs to build them (or a wee profit!) to your mates if you want to try something else later.
I have built a several open baffle designs with the Manger driver above 400Hz and various bass / mid drivers below 400Hz, twin 8 inch Seas Excel, Volt 10 inch, Beyma, Precision Devices and PHL 12 or 15 inch.
I used the DEQX to design and control the speakers and at the time (2003 to 2008) I loved the sound of them all but time and technology never stands still and I the system I am assembling now outperforms anything I have ever built in the past.
If you do build the open baffle cabinets it would be great to compare them to a sealed box 15 inch and small full range....
As ever, try before you buy!
All the best
Derek.
Hello Derek, as always your posts are very exciting to read, can I ask you what system and what speakers you assembling now ? I am so curious...are you talking about ones which you have attached ?
Do you think sealed box with small full range and 15 inch will outperform Open Baffle in SQ ? I am afraid I will be not have opportunity to compare these speakers so I would like to read your impressions of that if I can ?
Best Regards,
Rafael
I say TC9 is a TV speaker because that is what it sounds like. No amount of DSP will restore lost low level information. Once it is gone, it is gone.
dave
It depends on execution and what compromises you can most easily live with -- only you can discover that, and it takes some exposure to different systems to figure out -- i have formed what works for me after listening to hundreds (if not more) different speakers of many types.
Even the best loudspeakers are maybe 10-20% as good as an absolute standard, and there are many ways that a speaker can make it to that threshold. And they all sound at least somewhat different. The art of loudspeaker design is in the compromises chosen. There is no ideal solution.
You really need to bite the bullet and try some things (or at least get out and listen to what others have done). Once you go down the diy road it is very hard to just have 1 cookie.
dave
Maybe you are right and that's the amp but what I mean by bigger and louder sound I mean that when I play loud on LS50 they play loud but I feel like that is a max how loud they can go and I have feeling I can brake them...In short I would like speakers which play loud without being afraid that they will brake...by bigger sound I mean bigger image maybe or soundstage I'm not sure how to explain this but bigger even when I'm listening not loudly.
Best Regards,
Rafael
Louder is one thing. A bigger, more 3D soundstage/image is something else. It requires the ability to preserve subtle information & timing. This is one of the most notable thing EnABLed drivers do.
BTW, Scott has both FF85KeN & FF85wKeN. He doesn't have a good place to audition them (from what he says) but it is at least some near to hand.
dave
BTW, Scott has both FF85KeN & FF85wKeN. He doesn't have a good place to audition them (from what he says) but it is at least some near to hand.
dave
I would like to see a quantifiable measurement of these supposedly "lost low level information". Maybe this is the so-called DDR term you like to use? Oh wait, DDR can't be measured. Very easy to say a driver loses info - another thing to substantiate if with some measurements. It's as if you are saying that by using the TC9, we are only operating 12 bits (or whatever) out of the 16bits in a CD wav stream. Like we are throwing the bits away into trash forever. That's simply not true.
If you take harmonic distortion to be at least as low as your lowest significant bit of info then the measured distortion on the TC9 is superior to the FF85WK. I have measured it at -55dB at regular listening levels of 82dB. Some of this has to do with the more advanced suspension, motor, and cone materials. Does the FF85WK even have copper shorting ring?
Here is measured HD of TC9FD:
What does the same plot for FF85WK look like?
Great way to start off 2016 - with a good old round of bashing the TC9 with unsupportable claims and innuendos. Show us plots and data as to how an FF85WKeN is better? Higher sensitivity can be often mistaken for "detail".
If you take harmonic distortion to be at least as low as your lowest significant bit of info then the measured distortion on the TC9 is superior to the FF85WK. I have measured it at -55dB at regular listening levels of 82dB. Some of this has to do with the more advanced suspension, motor, and cone materials. Does the FF85WK even have copper shorting ring?
Here is measured HD of TC9FD:
What does the same plot for FF85WK look like?
Great way to start off 2016 - with a good old round of bashing the TC9 with unsupportable claims and innuendos. Show us plots and data as to how an FF85WKeN is better? Higher sensitivity can be often mistaken for "detail".
Thanks for another input BYRTT,
I would like definitely to have modern system which will play exactly or very close to played track. And that's true these Kef's LS50 are quite good at it which I like a lot.
By adding woofer you mean subwoofer or simple woofers like eminence alpha15 for example ?
Also I never had a DSP and to be honest I am not sure why I need to use it and what it does...big sorry here I am really an amateur in these sort of things...still learning.
I will definitely visit Overkill Audio as he said I am more than welcome which I am grateful for. Just looking now for best date for me and once I will choose one I will ask Derek If I can come this or this date.
And I will took with me LS50 my Creek Evo 100A and Chord Hugo as well to check how much I am missing in music nirvana.
Best Regards,
Rafael
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