Different amps have differing reactions to the changing load. That's key to the observations of these kind of things i.m.h.o.
For several years I believed the scientists types who claimed there wasn't enough noticeable difference between wires. You could EQ it out. Same goes for amplifiers. But lately I'm beginning to think they didn't look hard enough. Waving away the clues by wrong interpretation.
I am one of the scientist camp I guess, but I'm willing to look into it!
I do believe some of the claims made by Audio enthusiasts are actually very real. And CAN be found in the measurements. I'm using the FIR correction as a sort of referee.
Making the before and after plots as identical as I can. So far it's working. I can relate most of what I hear with what I measure. Not all of it, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough yet.
For several years I believed the scientists types who claimed there wasn't enough noticeable difference between wires. You could EQ it out. Same goes for amplifiers. But lately I'm beginning to think they didn't look hard enough. Waving away the clues by wrong interpretation.
I am one of the scientist camp I guess, but I'm willing to look into it!
I do believe some of the claims made by Audio enthusiasts are actually very real. And CAN be found in the measurements. I'm using the FIR correction as a sort of referee.
Making the before and after plots as identical as I can. So far it's working. I can relate most of what I hear with what I measure. Not all of it, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough yet.
0.6mm silver plated copper
Hi Guys,
I first noticed the advantage of solid core silver cables in about 2004 when I heard some "Crystal Cable" form Gabi ( Siltech guys wife), as soon as heard it in my Encore active system I was gobsmacked.....The more accurate your loudspeakers the bigger the difference....
Also the more drivers / meters of cable used the more dramatic the difference....
I agreed an OEM deal with Gabi and have used the cable for years.
Now I import my own 0.6mm solid high purity copper wire with triple thick pure silver coating....Its the best of all worlds.
Two other points, all copper oxidises and copper oxide is a very poor conductor....Thats a huge problem.
As silver oxidises very slowly thats good, the real benefit is silver oxide is almost as good at conducting electricity as "clean" silver....Thats great!
Last and very important with line arrays.....No solder, no solder, no solder....Never!
Always crimp the cables....
I get my drivers made specially with 5cm extended tails on the voice coil lead out wires....They are secured with a blob of solder to the connection pads, but the unbroken ( important) lead out wire tail is directly crimped to the internal 0.6mm solid core silver plated cable.....
Yes its slow, yes it takes time to get it right and you have to use strong heat shrink to secure the crimp joint afterwards but OMG its worth it....
I love all this stuff that is controversial & on "snake oil" truth, its why I am very wary about selling raw drivers to DIY guys.....They think they know best and just a "wee change" here or there wont affect the sound.....
So wrong!
I will only sell my silk BMR's as part of complete kits with my silver wire, damping material, contact cleaner, crimps etc....
Sorry for the rant but hope it helps!
PS
Try using a few meters of solder as speaker cables......Also measure that phase!!
Hi Guys,
I first noticed the advantage of solid core silver cables in about 2004 when I heard some "Crystal Cable" form Gabi ( Siltech guys wife), as soon as heard it in my Encore active system I was gobsmacked.....The more accurate your loudspeakers the bigger the difference....
Also the more drivers / meters of cable used the more dramatic the difference....
I agreed an OEM deal with Gabi and have used the cable for years.
Now I import my own 0.6mm solid high purity copper wire with triple thick pure silver coating....Its the best of all worlds.
Two other points, all copper oxidises and copper oxide is a very poor conductor....Thats a huge problem.
As silver oxidises very slowly thats good, the real benefit is silver oxide is almost as good at conducting electricity as "clean" silver....Thats great!
Last and very important with line arrays.....No solder, no solder, no solder....Never!
Always crimp the cables....
I get my drivers made specially with 5cm extended tails on the voice coil lead out wires....They are secured with a blob of solder to the connection pads, but the unbroken ( important) lead out wire tail is directly crimped to the internal 0.6mm solid core silver plated cable.....
Yes its slow, yes it takes time to get it right and you have to use strong heat shrink to secure the crimp joint afterwards but OMG its worth it....
I love all this stuff that is controversial & on "snake oil" truth, its why I am very wary about selling raw drivers to DIY guys.....They think they know best and just a "wee change" here or there wont affect the sound.....
So wrong!
I will only sell my silk BMR's as part of complete kits with my silver wire, damping material, contact cleaner, crimps etc....
Sorry for the rant but hope it helps!
PS
Try using a few meters of solder as speaker cables......Also measure that phase!!
lol, I showed measurements of two different types of wires yet the post about silver plated copper gets the attention.
I know right. Yes the measurements are interesting - I just got distracted by the shiny object.
I goes it must have been stray inductance from a sloppy placement of cables on my left speaker. I cleaned up other wires and cables going near it and the phase wrap at 1kHz went away. Both speakers match now.
I took out the infrasonic high pass filter and the sound is much more realistic and engaging. Really like how it sounds now. Listened to two whole live jazz cd's last night. Good stuff.
Here are the rest of the measurements.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-60.html#post4353642
I took out the infrasonic high pass filter and the sound is much more realistic and engaging. Really like how it sounds now. Listened to two whole live jazz cd's last night. Good stuff.
Here are the rest of the measurements.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-60.html#post4353642
Good thing you found the cause for that phase wrap. To bad though you had to settle for second order filters...
Here's what my phase looks like, still gated 5 ms amd smoothed 1/3 like yours...
measured at the listening position, 3 meters away
Yes, nice phase response!
Sorry, I clean forgot about your "prize" its going to be £20 to send it tracked and insured, if you're ok with that I will PM you my Pay Pal details.
Cheers
D.
No, not yet. I have excellent imaging and centre focus with these arrays. I also think an array should be tall to function optimally, preferably floor to ceiling.
It would be fun to try multi channel though, but the way these arrays project a virtual soundscape I haven't missed it yet. The sound goes a lot wider than the placement of the arrays if the music calls for it. Yet it can also give a small stage if that's how the recording was done. It's not as if every recording gets big and exaggerated. It does do a great job in a believable image of whatever is being played back. It works for all genre's I have been throwing at it.
The thing I'm working on is getting the timing as right as I can. So far it gives almost any recording an atmosphere, a believable scene if you will. Lots of new clues in old familiar songs, i.m.h.o. due to the correct harmonics. Fun and engaging, snappy and dynamic.
It would be fun to try multi channel though, but the way these arrays project a virtual soundscape I haven't missed it yet. The sound goes a lot wider than the placement of the arrays if the music calls for it. Yet it can also give a small stage if that's how the recording was done. It's not as if every recording gets big and exaggerated. It does do a great job in a believable image of whatever is being played back. It works for all genre's I have been throwing at it.
The thing I'm working on is getting the timing as right as I can. So far it gives almost any recording an atmosphere, a believable scene if you will. Lots of new clues in old familiar songs, i.m.h.o. due to the correct harmonics. Fun and engaging, snappy and dynamic.
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Wesayso,
Where can I get the Jones Rush DRC guide for download? There is a very poor copy on Scribd that I refuse to read.
Also, have there been any interfaces developed to DRC that are free? I see that it is a pretty old piece of software and was wondering if someone had developed an interface for it.
Thanks!
Where can I get the Jones Rush DRC guide for download? There is a very poor copy on Scribd that I refuse to read.
Also, have there been any interfaces developed to DRC that are free? I see that it is a pretty old piece of software and was wondering if someone had developed an interface for it.
Thanks!
For software, there is DRCDesigner that takes care of the heavy lifting for you. Worth a look. Works well but needs to be used in conjonction with REW to really follow what the small changes do to the signal, and adjust accordingly.
I was in the process of writing something for using DRCDesigner, a beginner's approach, which one could build on by reading more concise information around the net, but forgot about Jones Rush's guide ('cos the link is dead), and didn't know about the Scribd guide.
Actually, that Scribd guide is not so bad. Loads of pictures to indicate what to do and such. I just skimmed through it, but it looked alright, for basic understanding of what to do.
I was in the process of writing something for using DRCDesigner, a beginner's approach, which one could build on by reading more concise information around the net, but forgot about Jones Rush's guide ('cos the link is dead), and didn't know about the Scribd guide.
Actually, that Scribd guide is not so bad. Loads of pictures to indicate what to do and such. I just skimmed through it, but it looked alright, for basic understanding of what to do.
I've uploaded the guide for easy access:
http://www.rsr-concepts.com/diyma/DRC_Guide_v1.0.pdf
I've never done much with the guide except a read trough to get the basic understanding.
I'm using DRC Designer to ease the use of DRC. I am using it with REW, once I figured out what was needed to get that going. Just a few file conversions here and there. Not ideal but not the end of the world either. It works.
As Perceval noted it gives you visual confirmation for some of the steps along the way. Highly useful to see what is happening.
To get the most out of it I did change the template DRC Designer works with and from time to time I manipulate some settings.
But once figured out it's easy to play with.
I use the latest version of DRC-FIR which I just copied over the one included in DRC Designer.
DRC Designer has a custom tab. That's mainly what I use. Regardless of the radio button chosen on that tab (Minimal, Soft, Normal, or Strong) it always uses the "softXXXXX.drc" template for all of it's output. XXXXX being the sample rate, for instance 44100. Once you know that you can look into that template and change it's values if needed. DRC Designer will generate some batch files and text files that show what's actually been done.
http://www.rsr-concepts.com/diyma/DRC_Guide_v1.0.pdf
I've never done much with the guide except a read trough to get the basic understanding.
I'm using DRC Designer to ease the use of DRC. I am using it with REW, once I figured out what was needed to get that going. Just a few file conversions here and there. Not ideal but not the end of the world either. It works.
As Perceval noted it gives you visual confirmation for some of the steps along the way. Highly useful to see what is happening.
To get the most out of it I did change the template DRC Designer works with and from time to time I manipulate some settings.
But once figured out it's easy to play with.
I use the latest version of DRC-FIR which I just copied over the one included in DRC Designer.
DRC Designer has a custom tab. That's mainly what I use. Regardless of the radio button chosen on that tab (Minimal, Soft, Normal, or Strong) it always uses the "softXXXXX.drc" template for all of it's output. XXXXX being the sample rate, for instance 44100. Once you know that you can look into that template and change it's values if needed. DRC Designer will generate some batch files and text files that show what's actually been done.
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Ok, I'm having trouble upping the level of the recorded sweep above -25 db. It is already fairly loud, and I have the gain turned up all the way on the mic preamp. I'm pretty sure it's clipping the internal soundcard. What's happening? Sorry to post in this thread, but I know you guys have been through this and can help me out.
Also, I'm mainly interested in the sliding window with frequency. As I understand this feature is unique to DRC. How do you get the graph out of DRC that shows the resultant frequency response after converting the impulse with the sliding window?
So far, it is generating a left and right pcm file that I can open in REW. But it doesn't give the FR. As far as I know, REW cannot do sliding windows.
Also, I'm mainly interested in the sliding window with frequency. As I understand this feature is unique to DRC. How do you get the graph out of DRC that shows the resultant frequency response after converting the impulse with the sliding window?
So far, it is generating a left and right pcm file that I can open in REW. But it doesn't give the FR. As far as I know, REW cannot do sliding windows.
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Don't use DRC to make the sweep.
Use REW and make a 1M sweep. You will also get your FR curve.
Go to File, Export, and export as wav, 32-bit, don't normalise the peaks.
Now, you will need to convert that wav file into pcm. Wesayso uses CoolEdit, I use XLD.
Now, rename the new pcm files as LeftSpeakerImpulseResponse44100.pcm and RightSpeakerImpulseResponse44100.pcm (assuming you made a 44100 sweep.
Put those 2 files in the folder "sample", which is inside the folder drc-3.2.0
Open DRCDesigner, and make the target curve as you see fit.
Go to the filter tab and start off with the presets. Get DRC to make all the filters. They will be in the folder "ConvolverFilters" when it's done.
Now, going back to REW, use an output where you can add the convolution filters (try the preset Minimal at first). If you have JRiver, you can open a "Live" session, where JRiver will capture the output from your PC and add the processing you've selected. (If you don't know how to do this, there are some how-to's online... I don't have Windows at the moment and I forgot all the exact steps.... sorry.)
Once you know your output is using the filters, you do another sweep with REW. Now, you will be able to compare the first sweep, to the sweep you just made. Change the preset filter to another (Normal, for example) and try another sweep.
Also, listen to some music and do A/B listenings with and without the filters to see which one sounds better to your ears.
Hope it makes sense... if not, ask again and I'll try to explain it better.
Use REW and make a 1M sweep. You will also get your FR curve.
Go to File, Export, and export as wav, 32-bit, don't normalise the peaks.
Now, you will need to convert that wav file into pcm. Wesayso uses CoolEdit, I use XLD.
Now, rename the new pcm files as LeftSpeakerImpulseResponse44100.pcm and RightSpeakerImpulseResponse44100.pcm (assuming you made a 44100 sweep.
Put those 2 files in the folder "sample", which is inside the folder drc-3.2.0
Open DRCDesigner, and make the target curve as you see fit.
Go to the filter tab and start off with the presets. Get DRC to make all the filters. They will be in the folder "ConvolverFilters" when it's done.
Now, going back to REW, use an output where you can add the convolution filters (try the preset Minimal at first). If you have JRiver, you can open a "Live" session, where JRiver will capture the output from your PC and add the processing you've selected. (If you don't know how to do this, there are some how-to's online... I don't have Windows at the moment and I forgot all the exact steps.... sorry.)
Once you know your output is using the filters, you do another sweep with REW. Now, you will be able to compare the first sweep, to the sweep you just made. Change the preset filter to another (Normal, for example) and try another sweep.
Also, listen to some music and do A/B listenings with and without the filters to see which one sounds better to your ears.
Hope it makes sense... if not, ask again and I'll try to explain it better.