I am going to experiment putting a barrier between a pair of electrostatic speakers. The speakers will be about 3' from the front wall lined with two pieces of 2'x4'x4" Owens Corning 703 fiberglass panels side by side, placed 4" away from the wall, the barrier will be two pieces of the same panels side by side, would this setup work?
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I am going to experiment putting a barrier between a pair of electrostatic speakers. The speakers will be about 3' from the front wall lined with two pieces of 2'x4'x4" Owens Corning 703 fiberglass panels side by side, placed 4" away from the wall, the barrier will be two pieces of the same panels side by side, would this setup work?If, on the othe hand, you find that you can't listen to standard stereo any more...that's when the challenge begins.
Ditto, if the Polk speakes did what the horrible barrier does everyone would own a pair. I know I would.
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I'm amazed that it works well using a non time aligned speaker (6db crossovers) or full range drivers even.
And , yea, the barrier (to me) works best extending from the speakers to your nose.
A pain, but definitely superior sound.
I'm still thinking of a small pair of full range drivers set up sitting on a table (with a barrier).
I should remake my demonstrator.
It had great results with a Q-sound recording (no barrier) but your ears were maybe a foot from the w3-871s drivers (centers were 10" apart). Roger Water's "Amused to death" in the later tracks really threw the crickets chirping far away, and 45 degree angle to your left in front of you.
Any idea what happens to frequencies that are out of phase ?
Where do our ears place those sounds?
I know the normal (mono) are directly in front of you, and seperate left / right sound can throw way to the left and right (based on amplitude differences between left/right I believe).
Like the stereophile test 2 cd (I think) where the talker has his voice (and guitar after) recorded in and then out of phase.
Maybe someone can get back to us, even a 1khz tone would be interesting.
Norman
And , yea, the barrier (to me) works best extending from the speakers to your nose.
A pain, but definitely superior sound.
I'm still thinking of a small pair of full range drivers set up sitting on a table (with a barrier).
I should remake my demonstrator.
It had great results with a Q-sound recording (no barrier) but your ears were maybe a foot from the w3-871s drivers (centers were 10" apart). Roger Water's "Amused to death" in the later tracks really threw the crickets chirping far away, and 45 degree angle to your left in front of you.
Any idea what happens to frequencies that are out of phase ?
Where do our ears place those sounds?
I know the normal (mono) are directly in front of you, and seperate left / right sound can throw way to the left and right (based on amplitude differences between left/right I believe).
Like the stereophile test 2 cd (I think) where the talker has his voice (and guitar after) recorded in and then out of phase.
Maybe someone can get back to us, even a 1khz tone would be interesting.
Norman
Hey everyone,
Sorry for the thread revival, but I've had some odd experiences with ambiophonics. Namely, the suggested 20-30 degree angle seems to work worse for me than traditional 60 degree from listener.
Specifically, I have the delay 60-100 or so. Doing so I can get a very wide soundstage, but still don't lose the center (it reminds me of perfectly positioned narrow dispersion ESLs). In comparison, when I sit a fair distances to get the correct angle the expected wide soundstage (150 degree) vanishes and it sounds little better than what a normal triangle does.
Has anyone else experienced this? Do I just have a weird head/ear that requires tuning by ear? I tried it with other people in the standard triangle and they had weird reactions, some saying it sounded like instruments jumped channels when enabled, trouble locating instruments, and general confusion. In comparison I can point to changes in instrument location on the left and right as to exactly where I think I'm hearing them (without them "jumping" channels). The center stays dead center. I just don't get it . . .
Sorry for the thread revival, but I've had some odd experiences with ambiophonics. Namely, the suggested 20-30 degree angle seems to work worse for me than traditional 60 degree from listener.
Specifically, I have the delay 60-100 or so. Doing so I can get a very wide soundstage, but still don't lose the center (it reminds me of perfectly positioned narrow dispersion ESLs). In comparison, when I sit a fair distances to get the correct angle the expected wide soundstage (150 degree) vanishes and it sounds little better than what a normal triangle does.
Has anyone else experienced this? Do I just have a weird head/ear that requires tuning by ear? I tried it with other people in the standard triangle and they had weird reactions, some saying it sounded like instruments jumped channels when enabled, trouble locating instruments, and general confusion. In comparison I can point to changes in instrument location on the left and right as to exactly where I think I'm hearing them (without them "jumping" channels). The center stays dead center. I just don't get it . . .
Well unless you have a triangle head like Arsenio Hall, doubt it's you.
How are the side wall reflections, polar response?
The biggest disadvantage to the polk SDA's was the comb filtering between the horizontally spaced drivers. Found it better todo with active mixing with normal speakers.
How are the side wall reflections, polar response?
The biggest disadvantage to the polk SDA's was the comb filtering between the horizontally spaced drivers. Found it better todo with active mixing with normal speakers.
I don't have any measurements. Currently they flank my monitor which is recessed two inches or so. In terms of reflections the right is a bit close to a wall while the left shouldn't have any issues.
The speakers used are DCM-CX17.
However, I get similar results with my Mirage OmniSat V2 FS.
Do you mean it should be lower than 60-100µs, or higher?
Recursion in percent, 55%.
As I said, when I listen to it at the proper angles for the delay it sounds collapsed with little benefit.
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My set up is 30 degrees, around 35 microseconds delay with attenuation at about 4db.
Set up those mirages in the center of the room away from all boundaries and listen in the nearfield. Download "beautiful child" by fleetwood mac and wait for lindsey to come in on the left, then christine will come in on the right. Then come back here and thank me.
I have finished reading about 70 pages of this thread, I have to admit that much of the theory discussed here is way too difficult for a totally non-technical music lover like me to understand. I first read about ambiophonics in the Stereophile article nearly 26 years ago, it was way too weird for me in wanting to try it! It was many, many years later I decided to put up a barrier in front of my tv, without making any change in the speaker angles, at that time I thought the widening of the sound stage was very interesting and satisfying.
I went through the trouble of putting up a mattress every time I felt like experiencing that widen soundstage, unfortunately that new-found curiosity didn't last long because I found it difficult to sit up straight for a long time in a chair with my noise nearly touching the mattress. Many, many years went by, the memory of that widen soundstage listening experience resurfaced and I made a setup that allowed me to sit in a comfortable lounge chair and listened for extended period of time without getting tired in that nose in front of barrier position.
Still I did not move the speakers together because of that large 60" TV. I listened to music with this portable setup in front of the TV for sometime until I got a pair of new loudspeakers which can play much louder than my long time beloved Soundlab Prestines.
I put away the electrostatics and began enjoying the new speakers to satisfy my occasional crave for high SPL when playing power classical music. After nearly four years, that interesting ambiophonic memory(even with my previous incorrect setup) came back to me again and I wanted very much to experience it once more. The opportunity came when I was able to find the space in our living room to set up my stored Soundlabs properly using a barrier.
Here is my setup-- the room is 8.5'x15'x22', carpeted floor, two windows on the front wall, left side wall has one window up front and one in the back, right sidewall has a large opening of about 6'x6.5' near the middle, leading to the foyer, back wall has a French door.
The barrier is a piece of foam measuring about 2'x6.5'x4", the Soundlabs are placed 1' apart, slightly toed in, I guess the angle spread between the two speakers is about 40 degrees, they are about 5' from the sidewalls, about 3.5' from the front wall, the foam is placed on top of a box and the top of the foam barrier is about 4.5' above the floor, my ears are about 33" above the floor and the nose is 3" from the barrier.
I am here to report that I have been extremely satisfied with what I hear in my experimental setup, so much so that I have not returned in listening to my other stereo setup which is in a more dedicated environment, with floor to ceiling DIY bass traps, front and side wall panels, all made with 2'x4'x4" OC semi rigid fiberglass, the 99dB efficiency point source Synergy horns are mated with a pair of active twin-15" subwoofers. With the new setup when listening to my favorite symphonic music I find myself totally immersed in the extraordinarily clear sound field, with eyes closed (wearing a blindfold during day time and in total darkness during night time),
I am able to "see" SO clearly all the instruments in the soundstage, it totally locks in my concentration for the duration of each listening session which usually lasts hours. Of course this system can not compete with my other horn-based system in terms of ultimate SPL and bass output but interestingly at present I crave for that "I am on the stage looking at the musicians playing" kind of sensation a lot more! BTW, I now noticemy Soundlabs are sounding much more powerful in the bass, perhaps it's because they are being placed so closed together now, and also the other room where they were has a large opening in the back.
Granted, I don't even know what a proper ambiophonic setup sounds like but everyday I just can't wait to rediscover my favorite music with my new setup! I know I am not imagining. I am seeking advice from all you experts in this thread in order to correct/further improve my setup, I am absolutely loving my listening experience!
I went through the trouble of putting up a mattress every time I felt like experiencing that widen soundstage, unfortunately that new-found curiosity didn't last long because I found it difficult to sit up straight for a long time in a chair with my noise nearly touching the mattress. Many, many years went by, the memory of that widen soundstage listening experience resurfaced and I made a setup that allowed me to sit in a comfortable lounge chair and listened for extended period of time without getting tired in that nose in front of barrier position.
Still I did not move the speakers together because of that large 60" TV. I listened to music with this portable setup in front of the TV for sometime until I got a pair of new loudspeakers which can play much louder than my long time beloved Soundlab Prestines.
I put away the electrostatics and began enjoying the new speakers to satisfy my occasional crave for high SPL when playing power classical music. After nearly four years, that interesting ambiophonic memory(even with my previous incorrect setup) came back to me again and I wanted very much to experience it once more. The opportunity came when I was able to find the space in our living room to set up my stored Soundlabs properly using a barrier.
Here is my setup-- the room is 8.5'x15'x22', carpeted floor, two windows on the front wall, left side wall has one window up front and one in the back, right sidewall has a large opening of about 6'x6.5' near the middle, leading to the foyer, back wall has a French door.
The barrier is a piece of foam measuring about 2'x6.5'x4", the Soundlabs are placed 1' apart, slightly toed in, I guess the angle spread between the two speakers is about 40 degrees, they are about 5' from the sidewalls, about 3.5' from the front wall, the foam is placed on top of a box and the top of the foam barrier is about 4.5' above the floor, my ears are about 33" above the floor and the nose is 3" from the barrier.
I am here to report that I have been extremely satisfied with what I hear in my experimental setup, so much so that I have not returned in listening to my other stereo setup which is in a more dedicated environment, with floor to ceiling DIY bass traps, front and side wall panels, all made with 2'x4'x4" OC semi rigid fiberglass, the 99dB efficiency point source Synergy horns are mated with a pair of active twin-15" subwoofers. With the new setup when listening to my favorite symphonic music I find myself totally immersed in the extraordinarily clear sound field, with eyes closed (wearing a blindfold during day time and in total darkness during night time),
I am able to "see" SO clearly all the instruments in the soundstage, it totally locks in my concentration for the duration of each listening session which usually lasts hours. Of course this system can not compete with my other horn-based system in terms of ultimate SPL and bass output but interestingly at present I crave for that "I am on the stage looking at the musicians playing" kind of sensation a lot more! BTW, I now noticemy Soundlabs are sounding much more powerful in the bass, perhaps it's because they are being placed so closed together now, and also the other room where they were has a large opening in the back.
Granted, I don't even know what a proper ambiophonic setup sounds like but everyday I just can't wait to rediscover my favorite music with my new setup! I know I am not imagining. I am seeking advice from all you experts in this thread in order to correct/further improve my setup, I am absolutely loving my listening experience!
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I've done that actually . . . but I was using the recommended delay settings. Are you suggesting to go lower than the recommended and see if that helps?
Where are these settings recommended?
Just try my settings.
I have a normal sized head. And average ears.
I don't see how you can get a solid center with a 60 degree spread like you said. The center is largely determined by pinna cues.
you should also not have a monitor in between your speakers because frequencies will crawl across it. Remember, you have both channels coming out of both speakers. You have to be careful about boundries and defraction.