guys.
90db is great, but don`t forget the b..ch called baffle step.
in the end you are right yoke. you wont win any room. then they are small boxes on stands. *ggg
but honestly, i won`t go back to standard "scan speak tweeters" from my raals. i had along journey, but now i`m really happy with my speaker.
so, build `em.
90db is great, but don`t forget the b..ch called baffle step.
in the end you are right yoke. you wont win any room. then they are small boxes on stands. *ggg
but honestly, i won`t go back to standard "scan speak tweeters" from my raals. i had along journey, but now i`m really happy with my speaker.
so, build `em.
No
Huh? They are studio monitors, no guarantee of course, but they ought to be pretty accurate music makers. Early reports are very positive. Do not let typical audiophile prejudices convince you that these could not possibly be a great speaker and a fantastic bargain. I understand not liking the style, but do not make assumptions about their performance being all boom and sizzle. It's speakers like these that make it difficult for me to even consider making nice, custom monitors for folks nowadays. I can't compete.
Have a look at the attached picture. What if I told you this is one of the most detailed and accurate monitors I've ever heard? Does it look too plain and utilitarian for you? It's just a prototype. And it is three way, fully active with dsp.
Greg
Attachments
Here's what I've figured out about these RAAL ribbon tweeters.
They are essentially 8 ohms over the range from 2kHz to 20kHz. RAAL suggest about 2kHz upwards for crossover, and publish a schematic for an approx LR4 response at around 2kHz. I'd guess you want about 4uF and 12uF series and 0.4mH shunt for 3kHz, which would seem safer to me.
About 12 ohms series resistance was right for 5" woofers in my guess. The SEAS CA15RLY still looks a good prospect to me. You could use Troels' published design for the woofer filter and box, and hack on my guess.
SEAS 5INCH
I'd expect you'd need to fiddle about with the tweeter filter resistor to get levels right, then maybe fiddle with the woofer shunt capacitor resistor to get phase and imaging right. But doable, I reckon. I really just tried to replicate Troels' tweeter curve here. I won't bore you with the rough sim.
They are essentially 8 ohms over the range from 2kHz to 20kHz. RAAL suggest about 2kHz upwards for crossover, and publish a schematic for an approx LR4 response at around 2kHz. I'd guess you want about 4uF and 12uF series and 0.4mH shunt for 3kHz, which would seem safer to me.
About 12 ohms series resistance was right for 5" woofers in my guess. The SEAS CA15RLY still looks a good prospect to me. You could use Troels' published design for the woofer filter and box, and hack on my guess.
SEAS 5INCH
I'd expect you'd need to fiddle about with the tweeter filter resistor to get levels right, then maybe fiddle with the woofer shunt capacitor resistor to get phase and imaging right. But doable, I reckon. I really just tried to replicate Troels' tweeter curve here. I won't bore you with the rough sim.
Attachments
70-20XR
Neo 8 (..regular, PDR, or S)
Scan Speak 26W (4 or 8 ohms)
Correct?
OEM Raal, yes.
Neo-S, yes.
Scan Discovery Series 26W 4Ohm, yes.
Digmoda 552 for pwr/DSP
Very good, you win the prize! Not sure what it is, but it's yours.
I always like guessing current production drivers on loudspeakers.. I really don't know why.
I always like guessing current production drivers on loudspeakers.. I really don't know why.
I strive to also be good at that! It's fun, and not everyone can do it....
Later,
Wolf
jea, you are right...but...
I relay cant hear them, and I don't think that I can buy them in Croatia. I know that there are some exceptions that offer a lot for a money...but...
to me, really they do look like party monitors
and I dont like the look of them.But those on another picture do look nice to me...I like that retro look
...and was thinking about use that tipe of designagain can't tell about the sound...
there is one thing, every time I have seen and hear those tipe of speakers, wide, boxy (like Herbert or audionote)...they have that characteristic sound, which I relate to box, which is big, deep,open sound but somehow I always have the filing that beside drivers I can hear a box sing with it...which could be nice at lower volume but at high levels everything start to work together and affect sound...maybe it's in my head...but...that's me
Please, understand that I'm just generalizing things, as I'm newbie and have no technical arguments, I believe that those speakers could sound and be one of the best, but thay are not what I'am looking.
I do appreciate your advices Greg
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Here's what I've figured out about these RAAL ribbon tweeters.
They are essentially 8 ohms over the range from 2kHz to 20kHz. RAAL suggest about 2kHz upwards for crossover, and publish a schematic for an approx LR4 response at around 2kHz. I'd guess you want about 4uF and 12uF series and 0.4mH shunt for 3kHz, which would seem safer to me.
About 12 ohms series resistance was right for 5" woofers in my guess. The SEAS CA15RLY still looks a good prospect to me. You could use Troels' published design for the woofer filter and box, and hack on my guess.
SEAS 5INCH
I'd expect you'd need to fiddle about with the tweeter filter resistor to get levels right, then maybe fiddle with the woofer shunt capacitor resistor to get phase and imaging right. But doable, I reckon. I really just tried to replicate Troels' tweeter curve here. I won't bore you with the rough sim.
Thanks...
will think about that, and first advice about those d'appolito configuration
Thanks everyone,I really appreciate every advise,
and this is too much info for me right now
have to place everything on paper, and see how to proceed. It will take some time, but once I start I will report my progress.
FWIW, I'm getting a set of active custom speakers designed using the TD15M, TD6M and the RAAL 140-15D.
From what I was told (and had already suspected), the 140-15D is too long for a MTM to work well. You start running into problems with Center to Center distances and thus comb filtering between the two mids.
I've seen this mentioned in at least one other thread on a 140-15D design as well.
Simple simulations of MTM spacing with a 180mm long RAAL 140 ribbon illustrate the lobing challenges.
I hope Generic George will get a chance to measure the SPL/freq of a "new" Lambda TD6M.
A simple ported box comparison simulation of the Lambda TD15M vs. TD15S illustrates the efficiency vs. bass_extension trade-off. I wish Lambda offered a TD18S version which would have the surface area to function as an efficient deep bass woofer.
Attachments
I have been planning something similar. I think the cone driver would have to be crossed too high. I think cone drivers should not be used as bass and mid drivers all the way up to 800Hz, where the Neo8 take over. Not if it is detail you are after. The Neo10 (or RD75) would have been a better choice, from what I have heard from people. I have not heard them myself. From 800Hz up it is probably excellent.
Is it not disturbing to listen to music sideways like that? Some say, and I think I agree, that drivers should be placed in a vertical line.
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Greg is crossing the Neo8s around 450Hz.
I am building sth similar to Greg's studio monitor.
Neo10 has its own dispersion problems.
All that and it does not go much lower than Neo8s.
And also Neo10 may be a bit dull sounding compared to a 10-12" cone for the range 200-600hz.
Raal 140 is very much vertically challenged and for that price it does not even go low enough. In the realm of Raal, 70 makes much more sense.
I have Neo8s. It has problems too, but I like its trade offs better.
For one it can be crossed very low compared to its size.
And unlike Neo10, I can use the Raal type foam wedges on Neo8 for better vertical dispersion.
I will see how the HF works on the final design (naked tests are very promising). If I feel sth is missing, I might add the fountek ribbon (cd3h) on top of the cabinet.
On the low end, I will high pass the 12" around 100hz, so the lower mid will be cleaner.
A very big BR box with a 18" driver will take care of the bass.
I am building sth similar to Greg's studio monitor.
Neo10 has its own dispersion problems.
All that and it does not go much lower than Neo8s.
And also Neo10 may be a bit dull sounding compared to a 10-12" cone for the range 200-600hz.
Raal 140 is very much vertically challenged and for that price it does not even go low enough. In the realm of Raal, 70 makes much more sense.
I have Neo8s. It has problems too, but I like its trade offs better.
For one it can be crossed very low compared to its size.
And unlike Neo10, I can use the Raal type foam wedges on Neo8 for better vertical dispersion.
I will see how the HF works on the final design (naked tests are very promising). If I feel sth is missing, I might add the fountek ribbon (cd3h) on top of the cabinet.
On the low end, I will high pass the 12" around 100hz, so the lower mid will be cleaner.
A very big BR box with a 18" driver will take care of the bass.
Is it not disturbing to listen to music sideways like that? Some say, and I think I agree, that drivers should be placed in a vertical line.[/QUOTE]
If you are after the narrow baffle effect, that is what you have to do anyway.
But do not forget that wide baffles have their own merits.
I think some of the magic of Greg's new monitor comes from the closeness of all three drivers to each other (compactness?). Many diy'ers who experimented with the Raal 140 also ended up using it on the side of the mid driver (not on the top).
If you are after the narrow baffle effect, that is what you have to do anyway.
But do not forget that wide baffles have their own merits.
I think some of the magic of Greg's new monitor comes from the closeness of all three drivers to each other (compactness?). Many diy'ers who experimented with the Raal 140 also ended up using it on the side of the mid driver (not on the top).
My true ribbons supertweeters are 50cm so they are even more vertically challenged. But the sweet spot is very nice. Guess I should place it next to the woofer as well, instead of on top of it, but not sure at all if I want to do it.
I have a TPL-150 that goes lower than the true ribbon, but it is not as clear for cymbals.. Then I would like to add a diy bass AMT to 2-300Hz or Bohlender neo8/neo10 down to 500Hz. Then a woofer of some kind. I am very pleased with the 12" JBL 2204H, but I need a subwoofer because its Fs is around 50hz. And lowest frequency is more like 180Hz when run in U-form dipole. It is made as a low freq. speaker when space is an issue. In Oslo space is always an issue! Appartments are so expensive here.
Right now I am using a Radian 2" compression driver in a 40 deep horn for midrange. It sound good enough. Will try it with a 1.5 meter deep DIY Goto horn soon. It can play down to 450Hz pretty okay, but it tends to screech to certain music material. It also take a lot of room.
Compression drivers in horns are much more lively than AMT, true ribbons, and probably Neo8/Neo10. But they can be a little too much sometimes.
What are the bad things about the Neo10?
I have a TPL-150 that goes lower than the true ribbon, but it is not as clear for cymbals.. Then I would like to add a diy bass AMT to 2-300Hz or Bohlender neo8/neo10 down to 500Hz. Then a woofer of some kind. I am very pleased with the 12" JBL 2204H, but I need a subwoofer because its Fs is around 50hz. And lowest frequency is more like 180Hz when run in U-form dipole. It is made as a low freq. speaker when space is an issue. In Oslo space is always an issue! Appartments are so expensive here.
Right now I am using a Radian 2" compression driver in a 40 deep horn for midrange. It sound good enough. Will try it with a 1.5 meter deep DIY Goto horn soon. It can play down to 450Hz pretty okay, but it tends to screech to certain music material. It also take a lot of room.
Compression drivers in horns are much more lively than AMT, true ribbons, and probably Neo8/Neo10. But they can be a little too much sometimes.
What are the bad things about the Neo10?
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I think 100-10000hz is best covered with just one crossover point.
And ideally no XO in the 2-5k region.
Then you can add a sub and a supertweeter if you like.
Neo10 can be crossed at 200hz lowest. You end up having 2 XO points in the critical range.
With 3 drivers covering the critical range in a vertical arrangement, you lose compactness.
I agree; ribbons, AMTs and other planars need to be either very short or very tall (linesource). However, the foam wedge trick is helpful up to 6". IMO the foam acts as a mechanical filter and results in an MTM behaviour.
Expensive? Tell me about it; I live in London.
Keep in mind that wide baffle speakers can be placed right by the front wall (as long as there are no ports at the back). I am getting to find them more small room friendly.
And ideally no XO in the 2-5k region.
Then you can add a sub and a supertweeter if you like.
Neo10 can be crossed at 200hz lowest. You end up having 2 XO points in the critical range.
With 3 drivers covering the critical range in a vertical arrangement, you lose compactness.
I agree; ribbons, AMTs and other planars need to be either very short or very tall (linesource). However, the foam wedge trick is helpful up to 6". IMO the foam acts as a mechanical filter and results in an MTM behaviour.
Expensive? Tell me about it; I live in London.
Keep in mind that wide baffle speakers can be placed right by the front wall (as long as there are no ports at the back). I am getting to find them more small room friendly.
In my case with the Neo8S, I can cross closer to 500Hz. This woofer sounds just fine up that range in fact. Very much higher and I agree, it's calling attention to itself, but around 450Hz it blends perfectly well.
Don't let your eyes or common audiophile "knowledge" fool you. The side-by-side placement of the drivers is undetectable if done well. There is no magic narrow OR wide baffles. Each can image and sound fantastic. Try yourself to see if it is audible. I think with proper crossovers, the mounting scheme will be transparent to you.
Greg
If you've actually experimented with your theory of 100-10,0000 and prefer it, then fine. But I submit that it is just one version of how to get good sound and also has flaws and drawbacks asking one driver to cover such a large range. Flaws that cannot be "fixed" in the crossover or processing. Properly integrated designs "hide" the crossover points and just sound like a cohesive sonic picture. Also, the Neo series and Raal are perfect for each other. They blend so well I think due to light diaphragms, lack of any significant inductance and flat diaphragms rather than cones.
Greg
I am playing with the minidsp 4x10hd with three different setups, playing in mono.
12" JBL 2204H 80-450Hz
2" Radian 750-8 450Hz-14kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Sound like it is happening live at a concert. But I feel strained by the subtle harshness of the 2" compression driver. I only notice harshness because the TPL is so clean and can compare A/B. Otherwise I would not have a clue that the compression drivers coloured the sound to that degree.
vs.
12" JBL 2204H 80-1000Hz
Beyma TPL-150 1000Hz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Very nice and true, but lacking in midrange detail. Not as involving. Live feeling is gone.
vs.
12" JBL 2204H 80-1000Hz
Beyma TPL-150 1000Hz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: The crossover points kills the sound a little. Best would be to stick with the first setup or invent a bass AMT that can cover the same area as the compression driver, i.e. 500-15kHz. I still have a little live feeling, but muffled. Needs a lot of tweeking I guess to make a 4-way work properly. Too early to tell.
12" JBL 2204H 80-450Hz
2" Radian 750-8 450Hz-14kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Sound like it is happening live at a concert. But I feel strained by the subtle harshness of the 2" compression driver. I only notice harshness because the TPL is so clean and can compare A/B. Otherwise I would not have a clue that the compression drivers coloured the sound to that degree.
vs.
12" JBL 2204H 80-1000Hz
Beyma TPL-150 1000Hz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Very nice and true, but lacking in midrange detail. Not as involving. Live feeling is gone.
vs.
12" JBL 2204H 80-1000Hz
Beyma TPL-150 1000Hz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: The crossover points kills the sound a little. Best would be to stick with the first setup or invent a bass AMT that can cover the same area as the compression driver, i.e. 500-15kHz. I still have a little live feeling, but muffled. Needs a lot of tweeking I guess to make a 4-way work properly. Too early to tell.
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