Don't worry about - it look at the pictures
Revue du Son n°128 (mai 1989), n°137 (avril 1990), n°147 (avril 1991) rds128-147.pdf (4Mo)
Les manifestations des années 1989-90-91
L'Audiophile n°24 nouvelle série (avril 1993) au24N.pdf (4Mo)
Espace Kiron 1993
Revue du Son n°177 (avril 1994), n°186 (avril 1995), n°207 (avril 1997) rds177-207.pdf (4Mo)
Espace Kiron 1994, les manifestations de 1995 et Espace Kiron 1997
The clues are all there. I've been "playing" with this capability for 26 years, and the answer has always been obvious: the quality of the replay is crucial, absolutely crucial, and the slightest abberation "kills" the effect stone dead. If you only concentrate on the speaker itself as being the solution you are doomed, will always be doomed, to failure - unless you're lucky enough to have an overall system up to the mark.
Why it works outside of that "miraculous" stereo triangle is that the decoding mechanism in your brain is getting enough information to comfortably decode what's going on, and your mind accepts the "reality" of the illusion being thrown out into your room. If the information is too blurred, too muddy at the moment when it emerges from the speaker drivers then all is lost, the bigger illusion will never happen. A simple test, as I've mentioned many times, is to move closer and closer to a single speaker enclosure as it's working: if it sounds more and more like a normal speaker box doing its thing the closer you get then the quality is not good enough ...
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Maybe.
What Pano reported was that stereo can be really good and without the flaws so many of us hear in it. This is the demo in which he heard that fabulous stereo sound. What I can see are enormous speakers in a room which is very large compared to an ordinary domestic room and absolutely first class electronics. (The setup was done by pros like Hiraga).
There is also quite a bit of absorption with curtains near where the speakers are.
Both of us probably could set up something in that space which would sound fabulous if we could spend the money embodied in that demo. That space seats around 100 people.
Damn sight harder to do in a 15' X 25' room.
But the point is that those "extremes" are not necessary. The overall exercise is about fooling the brain, and always will be -- it's just that there are a number of ways of getting there, doing it to that level. I've managed to pull off the "big" sound with a piece of close to junk, all in one Philips HT setup - to see whether it was possible or not. Which means, that anything inbetween should be fully capable of doing it also -- it comes down to whether the individual is motivated enough to pursue this goal, I haven't seen anywhere that this sort of performance is available off the shelf ...
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Yes, that's the stuff. The amp was nice, but nothing super exotic. P-P EL34, IIRC. All passive crossovers. Minimal acoustic treatment. A space and acoustic I knew well, as I spent about 12 hours a day there for work.
I'll try to detail more when I get a chance, as that's the best example. There are others.
But I've spent the entire day on the floor of the NAB show in Vegas, along with 90 thousand other people. I'm whipped! Tried to get into the Dolby and DTS 3D sound demos, but they were packed. Will try again tomorrow morning. Should be fun to hear what they are doing with multi-channel.
OT, the Sony demos of 4K resolution 3D video was nuts. It looks more real than real life. Kinda scary. I'm not sure I want to get that close to a Smurf.
You now understand why I have given up on stereo and switched all of my systems to 7.1, and the concept I explained earlier in this thread. Most folks assume that the more speakers you put in a room, the more room reflections that are created. However, with more speakers pointed at your head(direct sound) most of those additional reflection are masked by the direct output from the speakers. This is supported by an experiement we did with Professor Tomlinson Holmann which is the basis of his 10.2 speaker system and sound format.
And that's a pretty decent analogy to the game that one can play with one's ears. It's fake, but it's pretty disturbing ...
On that topic, back in the 70's they developed a prototype filming and projector technology to the point of being "too real". Trouble was, test audiences couldn't switch off their body's reacting to the action as if it were the real thing, so visions of heart attacks, and lawsuits, etc made them decide to shelve it ...
Had a quick look at the Revue images, and the technique is pretty obvious: extremely efficient, decent speakers, driven by class A machinery or other components which are completely loafing to get the job done. It's like clearing a block of weedy, waist high shrubs by using a bulldozer in 1st gear with your foot off the accelerator - the engine idle speed alone is enough to clear everything in sight with the operator totally unaware that the 'dozer is doing any work ...
In other words, the electronics are extremely under-stressed ...
In other words, the electronics are extremely under-stressed ...
Again, what are the requirements to get "that fabulous stereo sound"? Is it a specific reflection pattern? A specific directivity? What is it?
All you keep saying is "it is possible" without answering how to get there. How is that different from selling snake oil? I'm disappointed.
Give him time, he's busy.
You say your living room has D/R ratio exceeding control room specs.
Griesinger:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-YGgCQ&usg=AFQjCNF5sf2caQyfyYmPHBKmlCUQRiDxUw
Might we be barking up the wrong tree?
There is late reflected energy in the recording.
I've quoted the abstract. It's an interesting paper.
Just as I've said, stereo can't do realistic spaciousness and envelopment. First reflections arrive too early and from the wrong directions. To create a sense of spaciousness reflections need to be added by the room or additional speakers. For envelopment additional speakers are needed. Toole talks about it in detail in his book.
All those concepts like D/R or RT are large room concepts. The sound field in an acoustically small room is very different. We have to get a better understanding of that specific acoustical situation. This is where the solution can be found.
All those concepts like D/R or RT are large room concepts. The sound field in an acoustically small room is very different. We have to get a better understanding of that specific acoustical situation. This is where the solution can be found.
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It's always good to know what the Truth is: when the experts in a field pronounce what they believe, everyone else can rest assured that that is all that can ever be known, or ever will be known, about the matter ...
Maybe I've misread your post but that's a pretty unfair statement. I've presented data and have given explanations that everybody can verify. Most other people here offer nothing more than their beliefs. When I ask them about precise steps how to achieve what they claim, they give evasive answers or no answer at all.
Drag your speakers outside and listen then report back what perceptions stereo offers under anechoic conditions. Make sure you use intensity-based recordings which is the majority of all recordings.
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Okay, I am reacting to the finality of your pronouncement about what stereo can't do. As a number of people have indicated on numerous occasions, there is more to the story then just that simple statement. And, part of the greater story is that achieving optimum stereo performance is not trivial to do; I have already elaborated on my technique, which unfortunately can't be followed by just anyone as a follow the dots process, because it involves constant interaction and feedback while modifying the individual system.
As a further complication, I can't just "drag my speakers outside", because the setup configuration is critical; making the system easily portable immediately degrades its capabilities. Of course this makes even more difficult for people like yourself to understand what all the fuss is about, but, at the moment, that's the nature of the beast: the people who have achieved this level of sound quality don't fully understand all the relevant criteria, myself included ...
As a further complication, I can't just "drag my speakers outside", because the setup configuration is critical; making the system easily portable immediately degrades its capabilities. Of course this makes even more difficult for people like yourself to understand what all the fuss is about, but, at the moment, that's the nature of the beast: the people who have achieved this level of sound quality don't fully understand all the relevant criteria, myself included ...