Depends on how long the 'round trip' wire run is and how much voltage drop [Vd] is considered acceptable, but it will probably be at least 'ok' in a smaller room whereas 18 ga offers enough dynamic headroom to ensure vanishingly low Vd or allow being [re]used in either longer runs and/or at higher power at an 'ok' Vd.
GM
GM
I would be wary of that price. Is this a trusted seller? Also, 20AWG is pretty thin for 25 ft of speaker cable. A 25 ft of 20AWG copper cable will give you ~ 250mOhms, for a total of 500mOhms (out and back), which might make an audible difference with your 8R speakers.
IMHO, for 25ft, get 12AWG to 16 AWG copper wire, and avoid exotic brands which are more expensive than most others. I've used RCA brand, and Dayton and been happy with both.
I generally avoid discussions about cable, as it's too much like arguing about religion.
I was assuming your were running 25ft of wire to each speaker.
IMHO, for 25ft, get 12AWG to 16 AWG copper wire, and avoid exotic brands which are more expensive than most others. I've used RCA brand, and Dayton and been happy with both.
I generally avoid discussions about cable, as it's too much like arguing about religion.
I was assuming your were running 25ft of wire to each speaker.
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I have gone from , "maybe, and some do sound worse" to "that's the least of our problem" 30 year journey.
For 12 Ga zipcord, use outdoor lighting wire. Cheap. 20 Ga is a tad light unless you are running a sub anyway. 16 Ga is usually still pretty flexible and I am not sure I have ever had an amp or speaker where it was not good enough.
I have used all sorts of things. You't be surprised how good 300 Ohm twinlead is. With my SR-71 kit came some very nice fine strand bare copper zipcord. Finer strands than normal.
You know the old original Monster, 11 Ga fine strand wire is darn good if you are doing a long run to a sub or woofer.
I admit, I am still using some Kimber 4TC on my mains. Never saw a reason to change it.
For 12 Ga zipcord, use outdoor lighting wire. Cheap. 20 Ga is a tad light unless you are running a sub anyway. 16 Ga is usually still pretty flexible and I am not sure I have ever had an amp or speaker where it was not good enough.
I have used all sorts of things. You't be surprised how good 300 Ohm twinlead is. With my SR-71 kit came some very nice fine strand bare copper zipcord. Finer strands than normal.
You know the old original Monster, 11 Ga fine strand wire is darn good if you are doing a long run to a sub or woofer.
I admit, I am still using some Kimber 4TC on my mains. Never saw a reason to change it.
Having seen BIL's response with the resistance, I am inclined to suggest that the cable resistance in the flow and return leads (total circuit resistance) should be not much more than the amplifier output impedance.
If the amplifier claims 100milli-ohms as output impedance, then about 10feet (5feet of flow and 5feet of return) of that cable will come to about a similar resistance value.
Output impedance + cable resistance + connector resistances, all add up to a value that the speaker sees as Source Resistance (Rs). That Rs affects the bass response by increasing the speaker Q and increases the "bass hump" if it's already there and gives a bass hump if the speaker was already "Butterworth" roll off.
If the amplifier claims 100milli-ohms as output impedance, then about 10feet (5feet of flow and 5feet of return) of that cable will come to about a similar resistance value.
Output impedance + cable resistance + connector resistances, all add up to a value that the speaker sees as Source Resistance (Rs). That Rs affects the bass response by increasing the speaker Q and increases the "bass hump" if it's already there and gives a bass hump if the speaker was already "Butterworth" roll off.
Radio Corporation of America no longer owns the "RCA" brand. I have read that some of the RCA speaker cables sold in the major big-box stores is made with aluminum wire!
Sew buttons
Ever worked with aluminum wire??? Work hardens if you look at it wrong, hard to maintain long term low-voltage connection integrity...
leave it for power xmission...
John L.
Ever worked with aluminum wire??? Work hardens if you look at it wrong, hard to maintain long term low-voltage connection integrity...
leave it for power xmission...
John L.
Yes I have. Still can't see the big deal, frankly. Once speaker wire is in place for the vast majority of people, that's where it stays with only occasional movement. The potential for connection losses is there, but if used sensibly, I still don't forsee major issues. Granted, there are other materials that have more benign mechanical properties, but ultimately, it's still just wire. We're probably going to have to get used to it, what with the ever-increasing draw on resources thanks to population growth. Hell, I don't know for certain, but I suspect that one premium wire producer (Van Den Hul) is already using it in their most recent products, since they have gone to exceptional lengths to state what isn't in it (the usual suspects) and avoid stating what is. 
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I always love to read these piles of 'experience stories'...
Also love to read the specs and features on websites of cable manufacturers, like 99,99999999999999999999% pure copper and such. And low properties of L R and C..
Well I can tell you that most of it is happening in the head! Surely you need some minimal kind of quality to get the juice through, but when doing real math with real measurements you will have to admit there is nothing in the LRC values that is worrying in a daily life audio pile.... Really, there isn't....
I think I have proven I have pretty good ears http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/117698-fountek-fr88-ex-17.html, but I am also rather a sober mind when it comes to nonsense. I have a nose for it so to speak. And yes I too have 'believed' and surely what you believe is true is true. But that's where the real issue ends.
Do the math with the LRC measurements, include even the output/input impedance and you will see that the influences of these properties will exclusively reveal themselves waaaaaaaaaay out of the audio band. Waaaaaaaaaay out of it! As in in the megaherz range....
C=1/(2pi*F*R)
F = 1/(2*PI()*SQRT(L*C))
Fill in your measurements and behold!
That said, copper is extracted from copper ore. There are just a handful of mines where copper is won. All copper is going through the same purification procedure to get it pure as that is the demand of the buyer of pure copper. There is no purer copper than pure copper, neither will 99,9999998% pure copper sound any worse as 99,9999999999% pure copper. All generic copper will be fine and provide specs beyond the realm of superb for this application.
The only thing audio cable companies are good for is providing bread, lots and lots of bread. They are like the large aromatizer companies getting away with astronomically high selling margins, like the aromatizer companies do on selling products which are in essence 95% salt.
Think about it.... and be objective...
Also love to read the specs and features on websites of cable manufacturers, like 99,99999999999999999999% pure copper and such. And low properties of L R and C..
Well I can tell you that most of it is happening in the head! Surely you need some minimal kind of quality to get the juice through, but when doing real math with real measurements you will have to admit there is nothing in the LRC values that is worrying in a daily life audio pile.... Really, there isn't....
I think I have proven I have pretty good ears http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/117698-fountek-fr88-ex-17.html, but I am also rather a sober mind when it comes to nonsense. I have a nose for it so to speak. And yes I too have 'believed' and surely what you believe is true is true. But that's where the real issue ends.
Do the math with the LRC measurements, include even the output/input impedance and you will see that the influences of these properties will exclusively reveal themselves waaaaaaaaaay out of the audio band. Waaaaaaaaaay out of it! As in in the megaherz range....
C=1/(2pi*F*R)
F = 1/(2*PI()*SQRT(L*C))
Fill in your measurements and behold!
That said, copper is extracted from copper ore. There are just a handful of mines where copper is won. All copper is going through the same purification procedure to get it pure as that is the demand of the buyer of pure copper. There is no purer copper than pure copper, neither will 99,9999998% pure copper sound any worse as 99,9999999999% pure copper. All generic copper will be fine and provide specs beyond the realm of superb for this application.
The only thing audio cable companies are good for is providing bread, lots and lots of bread. They are like the large aromatizer companies getting away with astronomically high selling margins, like the aromatizer companies do on selling products which are in essence 95% salt.
Think about it.... and be objective...
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While for most wire I'd agree, don't kid yourself that there aren't any wires out there with RLC specs. that influence the audio band. For e.g., you may wish to peruse the attached. This is 10m of an old Siltech made ribbon wire, into a simulated load (of a Carver Platinum MkIV if you're interested, which was done with full knowledge & measurements of drivers & XO). The amplifer was a Boulder, very low output impedance, and driven direct at the terminals, this should be flat to >20KHz.
Equally, the 4-5ohms of series R in a custom Fostex wire of a few years ago does have a very obviously measureable effect on the response & behaviour of the combined amplifier-wire-speaker system, how much depending naturally on the spec. of the first and last mentioned.
Equally, the 4-5ohms of series R in a custom Fostex wire of a few years ago does have a very obviously measureable effect on the response & behaviour of the combined amplifier-wire-speaker system, how much depending naturally on the spec. of the first and last mentioned.
Attachments
Totally un-excusable, for both the amp and the wire maker. Some amps don't put on the output filter. Big mistake. Some amps don't have protection circuits, also big mistake. ( thermal protection cannot touch the audio, so no excuses! )
Another reason why 16 ga zip is just fine. I was at a store once and they were demonstrating how different cables made the sound different. Yea, a few were so bad, the did damage the sound. "Different" does not mean better.
If you actually study wire, you would know oxygen is ADDED to reduce other impurities and improve performance. Mono-Crystal? Directional? Magic number topology? I consider that the realm of what my dogs do outside, and I don't mean bark. Simple system engineering: Assume a "perfect" speaker wire. Now look inside the speaker. Voice coils? Some are even aluminum now. Inductors of generic copper, iron wire in the resistors. Saw a good one: "Break in speaker wire" I know I am a bit harsh, but there are so many places where spending money makes a massive difference, like caps, transistors, drivers and so on. I actually saw a store sell a set of $200 cables to someone buying $200 a pair speakers. Just think what they could have done if they spent $400 on the speakers! Sorry if you are in the cable business. If you have $50,000 speakers and a set of Nelson's amps, play only first generation direct studio recordings, maybe. Maybe.
Another reason why 16 ga zip is just fine. I was at a store once and they were demonstrating how different cables made the sound different. Yea, a few were so bad, the did damage the sound. "Different" does not mean better.
If you actually study wire, you would know oxygen is ADDED to reduce other impurities and improve performance. Mono-Crystal? Directional? Magic number topology? I consider that the realm of what my dogs do outside, and I don't mean bark. Simple system engineering: Assume a "perfect" speaker wire. Now look inside the speaker. Voice coils? Some are even aluminum now. Inductors of generic copper, iron wire in the resistors. Saw a good one: "Break in speaker wire" I know I am a bit harsh, but there are so many places where spending money makes a massive difference, like caps, transistors, drivers and so on. I actually saw a store sell a set of $200 cables to someone buying $200 a pair speakers. Just think what they could have done if they spent $400 on the speakers! Sorry if you are in the cable business. If you have $50,000 speakers and a set of Nelson's amps, play only first generation direct studio recordings, maybe. Maybe.
Amp, speakers, wire is a system. For a commercial system it needs to be specced like the NAIM stuff, but as a diyer i don't see why an amp should be compromised for wire or speakers the amp will never see.
dave
They've been using aluminium wire in VCs for a very long time now (as in decades).
As for mono-crystal, hyper purity twaddle, I suppose it keeps some people happy. Of course, since EM theory (if we wish to invoke it) dictates that the signal travels in the electrodynamic fields outside the conductors, all that becomes somewhat moot. Good way to shut up the wire bores. Or it would be, but unfortunately Hawksford, in what I can only hope is a bout of recurring but temporary insanity, gave the wire brigade a new bit of pseudo-science to peddle with his Essex Echo 'paper' proporting to use electromagnetics to prove time-smear exists in wire. Misuse, unfortunately, would be the more appropriate phrase. 
Still, the wire peddlers have never been ones to let the truth & all that...
As for mono-crystal, hyper purity twaddle, I suppose it keeps some people happy. Of course, since EM theory (if we wish to invoke it) dictates that the signal travels in the electrodynamic fields outside the conductors, all that becomes somewhat moot. Good way to shut up the wire bores.
Or it would be, but unfortunately Hawksford, in what I can only hope is a bout of recurring but temporary insanity, gave the wire brigade a new bit of pseudo-science to peddle with his Essex Echo 'paper' proporting to use electromagnetics to prove time-smear exists in wire. Misuse, unfortunately, would be the more appropriate phrase. Still, the wire peddlers have never been ones to let the truth & all that...
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I agree 100%
This is the whole reason to DIY. You can custom build something to your exact requirements. No more no less. Hence produce something that a manufacture could never do.
Its basically the difference between an F1 (ie diy) and a VW passat (commercial)
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I reckon there could be a few of us here who have that level of quality in there diy systems at a fraction of the cost.
I reckon it can be done for about $3000 in diy
Anyway I think most people agree with you about wire generally speaking, but there are always exceptions as some people have pointed out.
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