Well no I was just going to build the cabinets myself.
I already have the plate amp and sub and I'm going to build the box for the active sub tomorrow hopefully.
What BOM link?
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I'm trying to figure out why your mains need 10" drivers and a 3-way design if you are already planning on building that 15" sub (making a 4 way system)... You don't generally want to produce your bass both on your mains and at the sub, you want to cross them over. A pair of 10" is very overkill for a single 15" sub as far as mating is concerned in a properly crossed over configuration. The single 15" sub will never be able to "keep up" with a pair of 10s being used as mid-bass units. I guess, the point is, the mains will never be fully utilized with the sub as the limitation here.
I would suggest a smaller build for the mains with either 2 x 5-7" drivers or a single 8" driver per side. You'll be able to focus more on quality crossover components, quality drivers, and impedance correction for the crossover to function right.
4-way systems really shouldn't come into play unless you are dealing with a much higher budget IMO. Even then, some of the best sounding systems in the world are still just 2-3 way, so SIMPLIFY!
If I had known the whole design goals of the project, I would have suggested a FAR different allocation of recourses. Had I known you were planning a stereo pair build AND a sub build, I would have suggested that you build a stereo pair of powered subs then smaller 2-way bookshelves with good drivers sitting on top of them.
I'll try to make some suggestions on driver/crossover builds but keep in mind that I probably fall in here on the forums at about a B- as far as the quality of information available.
Eric
I would suggest a smaller build for the mains with either 2 x 5-7" drivers or a single 8" driver per side. You'll be able to focus more on quality crossover components, quality drivers, and impedance correction for the crossover to function right.
4-way systems really shouldn't come into play unless you are dealing with a much higher budget IMO. Even then, some of the best sounding systems in the world are still just 2-3 way, so SIMPLIFY!
If I had known the whole design goals of the project, I would have suggested a FAR different allocation of recourses. Had I known you were planning a stereo pair build AND a sub build, I would have suggested that you build a stereo pair of powered subs then smaller 2-way bookshelves with good drivers sitting on top of them.
I'll try to make some suggestions on driver/crossover builds but keep in mind that I probably fall in here on the forums at about a B- as far as the quality of information available.
Eric
Subs are omnidirectional I only need one my dad does have a couple of boxes with mids and highs but missing the 8" woofers I could just get a couple of replacement woofers for those. Yea we are building my dad the 15" active sub that he wanted for christmas. Right now he has a couple of huge boxes with 2 10" woofers in each and the mids and highs are in the 8" boxes on top of them but they are missing woofers and the woofers he has are old and have been in the basement so we were planning on building a couple of new speakers to go with the active subwoofer that handled about 150wrms a piece. He still has to save up for the speakers so we have time to decide what to do for them. Whatever would sound best with the 15" active sub. He definitely wants a big sound tho.
My uncle in florida has (4) 18" JBL's and a 12" sub and we listened to that the last time we were there but he has a few McIntosh amps running them so they sound amazing. I've been into audio ever since but this is my first attempt at a nice custom home audio system.
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Do you seriously think that you are going to pump 150W into each speaker? I suggest you do some research on what power you really will need AND use.
You also seem very impressed with brand names. This is a DIY forum and members are, generally, more interested in performance than a name, also in how to achieve performance and measure it.
For $300 for a stereo pair, I wouldn't set my sights too high. As has been pointed out several times, trying to cobble together a system with ad hoc parts and an off-the-shelf crossover is a recipe for disaster. It MAY work but the odds are severely against it.
Several members have given sensible suggestions about getting the best return for a first project. If you choose to make your own mistakes, at least they will be your mistakes and nobody else's, but you won't end up with a decent system.
Also, asking for advice and then, essentially, spurning that advice leaves an unpleasant taste in those posters mouths.
Frank
Now that I have been through the sub build aspect of this project, and combining that with the "what might be available" stuff from this thread, I am very torn up. I don't know enough details to make a proper suggestion, and feel that a lot of my prior suggestions are a waste for this application (in the sub thread). I'm having a hard time fully understanding the scenario, however, it sounds like you already had a pair of boxes that would take a pair of 10" drivers. I'm trying to figure out why you felt the need to build a single 15" sub at all... for the type of listening you described, a pair of 10" drivers would be every bit as good if not better than a single 15" for the bottom end. The trick would be to use an active crossover and separate amp for those 10" units, then just build a nice pair of 2-way units to sit on top of those.
Idduno.. more details needed.. how's your return policy look?
Idduno.. more details needed.. how's your return policy look?
@Ninesvnsicks, your idea of using 10" drivers for a more enjoyable bass may have some merit, but maybe not for the reasons you suspect. One of the more significant aspects of doing it that way will be the width of the baffle. I suspect this is one of the things that make the Tarkus, which Sreten mentions, what it is. Going off that page, it also seems to be slightly subdued over the tweeters range in a good way and the response, I assume, suggests it will give reasonable weight to the performers like you seem to be wanting.
On the other hand, powerful bass is not about power (well it is but it's more about how the various frequencies tie together and blend with your room). Besides, the difference between an amp working into 4 ohms against 8 ohms can be no better than 3dB, a doubling of power. When it comes down to it in this way, 3dB is relatively insignificant.
@mdocod, I'd like to offer another side in that larger mains can work well with subs, and not crossing but overlapping them, as long as they are positioned carefully can bring about excellent bass.
On the other hand, powerful bass is not about power (well it is but it's more about how the various frequencies tie together and blend with your room). Besides, the difference between an amp working into 4 ohms against 8 ohms can be no better than 3dB, a doubling of power. When it comes down to it in this way, 3dB is relatively insignificant.
@mdocod, I'd like to offer another side in that larger mains can work well with subs, and not crossing but overlapping them, as long as they are positioned carefully can bring about excellent bass.
No i don't think i'm going to pump 150 into each speaker I think it's going to be total that is why I want 150 and not 100. I don't know why you think I'm obsessed with brand names I haven't said anything to indicate that I want performance and good sound that is all I care about.
The 10's my dad has and the boxes are rotting and are no good anymore so it's time for new stuff. He wanted the 15" sub I think because it moves a lot of air and hits low. I just went with what he asked for. The sub amp has a crossover on it that will cut out the highs so that should help. I'm down for whatever you think would sound good with the sub I have mentioned that multiple small sized woofers might be better he just said he wanted 2 10's so I was again just going with what he asked for. By 2 way do you mean mid range and tweeters?
That was pretty much the plan when I started this thread, Yes it will have a single 15" active sub and I haven't made the box for it yet or decided on what other speakers to use so whatever would sound best that is what I am looking for.
Are you helping your dad, or is he helping you?
Very good advise was given by all members with a lot of experience and know-how. That was maybe when Eric said a 2-Way was a viable option, but not perhaps what he/his father had in view. Someone has to decide and take command. Op is a little restricted financially and he is now completely lost and very confused. NPI
Love the Tarkus (sreten) and the SB's (adason) thought.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...o-sb12.3-sb-acoustics-12-dual-midrange-3-way/
And the Tarkus woodworking/finish Stickley style.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/pdf/mission_oak_rev6-2010.pdf
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Sounds like you are being locked into 10" mains, which basically necessitates the use of a 3-way design. The problem is, building a proper 3-way crossover with impedance correction is very expensive. Impedance correction on a big 10" woofer is also going to require some very large value components.
Very much agree. The money available will be drained in a true 3-Way X-Over.
Unless the use of very expensive drivers and 1.order fashion.
Indeed I am confused now lol. I am trying to figure out what will sound best and piece together something but I'm unsure on what that should be now.Are you helping your dad, or is he helping you?
Very good advise was given by all members with a lot of experience and know-how. That was maybe when Eric said a 2-Way was a viable option, but not perhaps what he/his father had in view. Someone has to decide and take command. Op is a little restricted financially and he is now completely lost and very confused. NPI
Love the Tarkus (sreten) and the SB's (adason) thought.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
Zaph|Audio SB12.3 ~ SB Acoustics 12", Dual Midrange, 3-Way: Madisound Speaker Store
And the Tarkus woodworking/finish Stickley style.
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/pdf/mission_oak_rev6-2010.pdf
So far I like the Tarkus design and the fact that he linked to all the drivers on parts-express so I know which to purchase. Do the box designs have to be wedges like that to sound good?
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Have a look at Dennis Murphy's 3 way suggested in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/202515-tower-build-help.html
only 8" woofers, but they're good & should pump, and the build suits your knowledge level ... & then , if you really need them, add a couple of 15" subs later
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/202515-tower-build-help.html
only 8" woofers, but they're good & should pump, and the build suits your knowledge level ... & then , if you really need them, add a couple of 15" subs later
Of course not. You can build a Stonehenge III Studio Monitor with a Duplex Altec Driver and have a good sound (in this case a ~158.5L/5.6 Sqf enclosure...)
In the limit X-overs are designed with differences of phase in mind, and other details, but in your case that's not a constraint. Not that isn't important (nulls), that's why distances between drivers should be maintained. The other (safest) option is choosing a prefab kit if you don't know.
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Personally, I'd extend the woofer boxes up until I had room to put the mid and tweeter on them. This would then be dependent on some tweaking of the crossover and it therefore wouldn't be a proven design anymore. The differences will be fairly minor.
I think I may have a solution to the 10" woofer requirement issue here...
Build a 2-way system utilizing this:
Bohlender Graebener Neo8 Planar Transducer 264-712
As your midrange and tweeter. This eliminates the need for separate mid and high frequency drivers, and also simplifies the crossover.
I think going with AllenB's suggestion to just have the sub and mains overlap rather than cross them over will make better use of available drivers. Just need to try to build the mains in such a way that they will integrate nicely with the sub, so that they complement eachother well.
I think the Aluminum 10" drivers you have selected would work well for this actually. Using 2 per side, I like ~5-6ft^3 boxes tuned to 25hz. I know we talked about 7ft^3 for the sub, however, I think the sub would mate better with these 10" mains better if the box size were increased to 9ft^3 (still tuned to ~23hz), The total system will combined to be flatter down to ~30hz that way.
See the simulation below (it's 4x dayton 10" aluminum drivers in 11ft^3 worth of space (5.5ft^3 per box) driven to maximum power (~Xmax limited to 40W per driver) simed next to the 15" sub, in a 9ft^3 box driven at ~140W (Xmax limited also).
------------------------
As for the crossover, Someone had better check my work on this as I am a rank amateur in this department but I would do the following to keep things fairly simple and cheap and to test out a working theory.
For starters, I would buy 4x22uF non-polorized caps:
22uF 100V Non-Polarized Capacitor 027-348
Then 4x 8Ohm 20W resistors:
8 Ohm 20W Resistor Wire Wound 017-8
I would wire each cap in series with a resistor. In the crossover design, these will serve as the impedance correction for the woofers (this is known as a zobel network). They should be installed in parallel with the woofers. I would mount them on your crossover "board" but make sure to wire these in between the crossover and the woofers. The woofers should be wired in parallel after these networks. (I'm pretty sure that will work but can't say with 100% confidence). Alternatively, I believe the same could be accomplished with the woofers wired in parallel first, then the zobel components calculated based on the combined inductance/nominal impedance of the parallel configuration (I believe this is half for each). The resulting components would be a single 4Ohm resistor, and a ~38uF cap.
The planar transducer requires no impedance correction, (yay!).
The planar transducer has a steady roll off in sensitivity from ~2,000hz down to ~700hz (our target x-over) of about 8db loss. My gut tells me that the easiest way to help offset some of this, is to use a steep slope on the crossover for the high pass, while using a very gentle slope for the the low pass. This should help flatten out the response to an acceptable level while simultaneously provided the desired protection for the tweeter. I see no reason for any attention of either the woofers or the planars, I think they will play very nicely together.
Your crossover section for the woofers is simple:
Jantzen 0.91mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor 255-420
Just need 1 of those per completed speaker (2 total). Wire in series with the woofer section (between the amplifier and where you wired the woofers in parallel).
The tweeter is slightly more complex but nothing terribly difficult. I would use a 3rd order 18db/octave here or 4th order 24db/octave. To be honest... The one that will work better will probably depend on the relationship of the driver mounting position. I'd lean towards the 3rd order and I believe you would want to wire the tweeter reverse polarity from the woofers but I could be wrong on that.
To keep costs down I'd be very temped to just use non-polarized electrolytic caps here. Using high quality film or poly caps would probably blow the budget really bad.
The 3rd order is a "3 component" build. You can see how to wire it in the diagrams here: Crossover Design Calculators
I would use these as the inductors: Jantzen 0.70mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor 255-042
The cap values don't line up with single available caps so you'll; have to wire caps in parallel to come up with the proper values. You need 38uF and about 114uF. I would combine a 33uF and 4.7uF to make the "38uF" and I would combine a 100uF and 15uF to make the "115uF."
NON POLAR ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS from Parts Express ship same day and come with 45 day money back guarantee. Free Shipping Available. Order free 10,000 product catalog.
If you can afford to throw a few more bucks at the crossovers (like another $15) I would suggest that the 4.7uF and 15uF caps described above be Dayton Poly caps instead of the electrolytic type. That $15 could actually make a pretty significant difference. The costs of doing the 33uF and 100uF caps in poly or metal/film would probably be prohibitive.
This keeps your entire crossover and impedance correction costs in the $40-60 range. However, I can not grantee any particular level of quality performance here. You would be the guiny pig. Sorry. The good news is that, the zobel networks can basically be left alone, I believe the 1st order for the woofers would probably be fine left alone as well, the only thing left open for future experimentation that may be worthwhile is the high pass. I would be tempted to try both the 3rd and 4rd order to see which sounded better, the cost of building each isn't that bad if you are just using electrolytic caps.
Eric
Build a 2-way system utilizing this:
Bohlender Graebener Neo8 Planar Transducer 264-712
As your midrange and tweeter. This eliminates the need for separate mid and high frequency drivers, and also simplifies the crossover.
I think going with AllenB's suggestion to just have the sub and mains overlap rather than cross them over will make better use of available drivers. Just need to try to build the mains in such a way that they will integrate nicely with the sub, so that they complement eachother well.
I think the Aluminum 10" drivers you have selected would work well for this actually. Using 2 per side, I like ~5-6ft^3 boxes tuned to 25hz. I know we talked about 7ft^3 for the sub, however, I think the sub would mate better with these 10" mains better if the box size were increased to 9ft^3 (still tuned to ~23hz), The total system will combined to be flatter down to ~30hz that way.
See the simulation below (it's 4x dayton 10" aluminum drivers in 11ft^3 worth of space (5.5ft^3 per box) driven to maximum power (~Xmax limited to 40W per driver) simed next to the 15" sub, in a 9ft^3 box driven at ~140W (Xmax limited also).
------------------------
As for the crossover, Someone had better check my work on this as I am a rank amateur in this department but I would do the following to keep things fairly simple and cheap and to test out a working theory.
For starters, I would buy 4x22uF non-polorized caps:
22uF 100V Non-Polarized Capacitor 027-348
Then 4x 8Ohm 20W resistors:
8 Ohm 20W Resistor Wire Wound 017-8
I would wire each cap in series with a resistor. In the crossover design, these will serve as the impedance correction for the woofers (this is known as a zobel network). They should be installed in parallel with the woofers. I would mount them on your crossover "board" but make sure to wire these in between the crossover and the woofers. The woofers should be wired in parallel after these networks. (I'm pretty sure that will work but can't say with 100% confidence). Alternatively, I believe the same could be accomplished with the woofers wired in parallel first, then the zobel components calculated based on the combined inductance/nominal impedance of the parallel configuration (I believe this is half for each). The resulting components would be a single 4Ohm resistor, and a ~38uF cap.
The planar transducer requires no impedance correction, (yay!).
The planar transducer has a steady roll off in sensitivity from ~2,000hz down to ~700hz (our target x-over) of about 8db loss. My gut tells me that the easiest way to help offset some of this, is to use a steep slope on the crossover for the high pass, while using a very gentle slope for the the low pass. This should help flatten out the response to an acceptable level while simultaneously provided the desired protection for the tweeter. I see no reason for any attention of either the woofers or the planars, I think they will play very nicely together.
Your crossover section for the woofers is simple:
Jantzen 0.91mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor 255-420
Just need 1 of those per completed speaker (2 total). Wire in series with the woofer section (between the amplifier and where you wired the woofers in parallel).
The tweeter is slightly more complex but nothing terribly difficult. I would use a 3rd order 18db/octave here or 4th order 24db/octave. To be honest... The one that will work better will probably depend on the relationship of the driver mounting position. I'd lean towards the 3rd order and I believe you would want to wire the tweeter reverse polarity from the woofers but I could be wrong on that.
To keep costs down I'd be very temped to just use non-polarized electrolytic caps here. Using high quality film or poly caps would probably blow the budget really bad.
The 3rd order is a "3 component" build. You can see how to wire it in the diagrams here: Crossover Design Calculators
I would use these as the inductors: Jantzen 0.70mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor 255-042
The cap values don't line up with single available caps so you'll; have to wire caps in parallel to come up with the proper values. You need 38uF and about 114uF. I would combine a 33uF and 4.7uF to make the "38uF" and I would combine a 100uF and 15uF to make the "115uF."
NON POLAR ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITORS from Parts Express ship same day and come with 45 day money back guarantee. Free Shipping Available. Order free 10,000 product catalog.
If you can afford to throw a few more bucks at the crossovers (like another $15) I would suggest that the 4.7uF and 15uF caps described above be Dayton Poly caps instead of the electrolytic type. That $15 could actually make a pretty significant difference. The costs of doing the 33uF and 100uF caps in poly or metal/film would probably be prohibitive.
This keeps your entire crossover and impedance correction costs in the $40-60 range. However, I can not grantee any particular level of quality performance here. You would be the guiny pig. Sorry. The good news is that, the zobel networks can basically be left alone, I believe the 1st order for the woofers would probably be fine left alone as well, the only thing left open for future experimentation that may be worthwhile is the high pass. I would be tempted to try both the 3rd and 4rd order to see which sounded better, the cost of building each isn't that bad if you are just using electrolytic caps.
Eric
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For what it's worth, it's quite deliberate
You'll find this has much to do with the room and placement. Of course the woofers level and phase at a given frequency are fundamentally involved, but there is no sense in changing your mains as they are what it all "should be", instead working the modes with your subs. I find that a simple closed box for the mains woofers is easy to work with as long as the rolloff happens down where the room is modal. Mine, for example are -3dB at around 70Hz. Going much lower than this might make integration harder once you begin to pass below the modes, and using a bass reflex enclosure for your mains could also make it more difficult, but you'd probably need to try it to find out.
rdgs, sreten.
Build a properly designed, documented and tested proven design.
The Tarkus bass is better than plenty of subwoofers, so any
added subwoofer(s) should be used in parallel c/o very low.
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Oh... forgot to mention for my suggested build above... I would go with roughly a 12" x 24" x 36" box size (internal dimensions), with the 12x36 being the front baffle, and the drivers arranged MTM with a pair of ports on either side of the planar. The ports could be of "slot" style utilizing the edge of the cabinet. The inner baffles to make the ports will double as part of the sealed and heavily dampened chamber you'll probably want to put that planar in. The box's should be elevated off of floor level. 18-24" of rise would be ideal IMO.
After further review, the effects of baffle loading will boost the sensitivity of the neo8 at our x-over by about 4db, which, IMO, may make the use of a 2nd order x-over more appropriot on the high pass. That would actually probably be a good thing, as it would get more of the highs out of that large diameter cone.
After further review, the effects of baffle loading will boost the sensitivity of the neo8 at our x-over by about 4db, which, IMO, may make the use of a 2nd order x-over more appropriot on the high pass. That would actually probably be a good thing, as it would get more of the highs out of that large diameter cone.
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