Top-Heavy, no bass?
Hi everyone,
installed TT3.0 and tested it for 2 days now ... thanks for all the work, soundcheck!
At this point, I have the same mixed-feelings result as erin. Obviously, TT3.0 wins over TT2.0 hands-down in terms of resolution, detail, especially top-end detail. It's just no comparison.
But the overall sound is tilted towards treble, and deep bass is now missing. The sound is not "substantial". Tried the re-install after repeated firmware reset that somebody suggested, but same.
Well, maybe it's the hardware. So far, I have tried TT3.0 on a stock SBT. I have another, hw-modded Touch (with an outboard clock and the HW SPDIF mod applied ...) that I will re-program with TT3.0 tomorrow ....
Thomas
Hi everyone,
installed TT3.0 and tested it for 2 days now ... thanks for all the work, soundcheck!
At this point, I have the same mixed-feelings result as erin. Obviously, TT3.0 wins over TT2.0 hands-down in terms of resolution, detail, especially top-end detail. It's just no comparison.
But the overall sound is tilted towards treble, and deep bass is now missing. The sound is not "substantial". Tried the re-install after repeated firmware reset that somebody suggested, but same.
Well, maybe it's the hardware. So far, I have tried TT3.0 on a stock SBT. I have another, hw-modded Touch (with an outboard clock and the HW SPDIF mod applied ...) that I will re-program with TT3.0 tomorrow ....
Thomas
Upgrade/Downgrade
Hi Erin,
is the fuller sound with the old server software plus TT 3.0? Or did you now downgrade both?
I managed to get a somewhat fuller sound under 3.0 by fiddling around with the buffer size. For some reason that I do not even want to know about, my old and trusted 2.0-setting of 3600 produces a significantly thinner sound than 3800 or 4000. But still, the sound is too much in-your-face, there is just too much treble overall, however much better defined. and too little bass. Setting the buffer to 20 000 or something crazy large, on the other hand, only makes the sound flat and lifeless.
Going to do more experiments as soon as I locate my soldering iron ...
Thomas
P.S. Development Fund supported ...
Hi Erin,
is the fuller sound with the old server software plus TT 3.0? Or did you now downgrade both?
I managed to get a somewhat fuller sound under 3.0 by fiddling around with the buffer size. For some reason that I do not even want to know about, my old and trusted 2.0-setting of 3600 produces a significantly thinner sound than 3800 or 4000. But still, the sound is too much in-your-face, there is just too much treble overall, however much better defined. and too little bass. Setting the buffer to 20 000 or something crazy large, on the other hand, only makes the sound flat and lifeless.
Going to do more experiments as soon as I locate my soldering iron ...
Thomas
P.S. Development Fund supported ...
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I have 2 Touches w/ a good linear power supply on each. The output caps on the analog outs have been shorted on each. Logitech Media Server
(7.7.0) is installed. All is run on wired ethernet and PCM is sent from the server to the devices. Various other small tweaks too numerous to mention have been added. I have installed Klaus' TT 3.0 on both units, because of the daemon killer I have reset to factory specs and reinstalled more times than I can remember. All this talk of a treble leaning sound actually fed into my audio nervosa enough to cause me to try many different things. I added a newish netbook to run the server side software and the attached USB HDD for storage and then fixed all the little details to make that operate smoothly.
I feel like the system as now constituted, w/ TT 3.0 only, provides the best quality playback I've yet heard from my digital frontend. The complaints of a treble tilted or bass shy output do not exist in my systems. Thanks Klaus for all your efforts.
Larry Crimmins
(7.7.0) is installed. All is run on wired ethernet and PCM is sent from the server to the devices. Various other small tweaks too numerous to mention have been added. I have installed Klaus' TT 3.0 on both units, because of the daemon killer I have reset to factory specs and reinstalled more times than I can remember. All this talk of a treble leaning sound actually fed into my audio nervosa enough to cause me to try many different things. I added a newish netbook to run the server side software and the attached USB HDD for storage and then fixed all the little details to make that operate smoothly.
I feel like the system as now constituted, w/ TT 3.0 only, provides the best quality playback I've yet heard from my digital frontend. The complaints of a treble tilted or bass shy output do not exist in my systems. Thanks Klaus for all your efforts.
Larry Crimmins
larry.
the daemon-killer just needs a short power reset or hard reset!!!!! you don't have to run a factory reset.
RTFM
Thanks, that will at least save some time going forward. Read the F'ing Manual indeed.
Larry
I downgraded everthing back to my old setup. SBS and SBT both running 7.5.4. Win XP. TT2.0 with 100% volume lock. Buffer 3600, Digital output only
From what I have read I am not the only person with this issue, but I believe I have narrowed it down to Logitech media server, but why the heck the software with my motherboard is causing this issue is a complete mystery. Clearly its a hardware/ software incompatibility specific to my setup.
I tried the Touch running the latest firmware without any mods on SMS, and it was still thin sounding. So I know that it is not TT3.0 causing it.
Since there are - as it seems - quite different results experienced by different users on TT3.0 ( not only over here), I'd like to cite what I just wrote at SB Forums.
It's just to avoid too high expectations from all kind of users.
Below was my esponse to somebody who mentioned (he was more more wondering about it) that you would have to run TT3.0 with all options "ON" to achieve best results.
"I do think I made pretty clear that if you skip any of the modifications, we're not talking about the same subject.
TT30 means you run the full blown package.
If you strip it down feedback becomes kind of irrelevant and misleading.
The toolbox is tuned to run the Touch at its limits.
A race car acts more sensitive to slightest changes and needs real sensitive tuning. You need to realize that we now got away from driving a
family van.
Building in the different options and parameter values to choose from is
a commitment to the community.
You guys called for it. I'm well aware that this will be a problem in this or that case.
I'm also aware that the majority of systems will have other bottlenecks in the chain, which are not that easy to get rid off and mess up the sound.
Of course you need to isolate these first. And you need to be motivated and skilled to do so.
Quite some people might think they get to audiophile nirvana just by a 5 minute exercise. Download - install - done.
No folks. That won't work. Things are more complex.
With TT30 I offer you a pretty decent headstart. And that's about it.
Beside that I guess that not very many people follow my HW and networking advise.
As mentioned before the HW (PS, board mods, SPDIF mods),
the network and the server will have a great impact on your sound too.
I consider these mods as important as the SW part.
If you get all this pretty much sorted out, we start talking about a situation, where I am right now.
Don't forget. Running a revealing system means revealing good AND bad.
However. I'm sure that the Toolbox as such can still be improved with your valuable and constructive feedback.
Good luck on your journey.
Cheers"
For those who'd like to read what those folks - who managed to get it all pretty satisfactory working - wrote, might want to read the TT30 related testimonials on my blog.
Cheers
It's just to avoid too high expectations from all kind of users.
Below was my esponse to somebody who mentioned (he was more more wondering about it) that you would have to run TT3.0 with all options "ON" to achieve best results.
"I do think I made pretty clear that if you skip any of the modifications, we're not talking about the same subject.
TT30 means you run the full blown package.
If you strip it down feedback becomes kind of irrelevant and misleading.
The toolbox is tuned to run the Touch at its limits.
A race car acts more sensitive to slightest changes and needs real sensitive tuning. You need to realize that we now got away from driving a
family van.
Building in the different options and parameter values to choose from is
a commitment to the community.
You guys called for it. I'm well aware that this will be a problem in this or that case.
I'm also aware that the majority of systems will have other bottlenecks in the chain, which are not that easy to get rid off and mess up the sound.
Of course you need to isolate these first. And you need to be motivated and skilled to do so.
Quite some people might think they get to audiophile nirvana just by a 5 minute exercise. Download - install - done.
No folks. That won't work. Things are more complex.
With TT30 I offer you a pretty decent headstart. And that's about it.
Beside that I guess that not very many people follow my HW and networking advise.
As mentioned before the HW (PS, board mods, SPDIF mods),
the network and the server will have a great impact on your sound too.
I consider these mods as important as the SW part.
If you get all this pretty much sorted out, we start talking about a situation, where I am right now.
Don't forget. Running a revealing system means revealing good AND bad.
However. I'm sure that the Toolbox as such can still be improved with your valuable and constructive feedback.
Good luck on your journey.
Cheers"
For those who'd like to read what those folks - who managed to get it all pretty satisfactory working - wrote, might want to read the TT30 related testimonials on my blog.
Cheers
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I would like to do some A-B testing between the analog and digital outputs of the Touch with TT 3.0 installed. That way I can compare the listening experience of my outboard DAC with the DAC in the Touch.
Right now the only way I can do this is to use the TT 3.0 console to switch between the commands:
tt -o 0
and
tt -o 1
This obviously does not work too well for a quick comparison between 2 different sources.
Might it be possible to add a command to activate both the analog and digital outputs, e.g.
tt -o 2 ?
Right now the only way I can do this is to use the TT 3.0 console to switch between the commands:
tt -o 0
and
tt -o 1
This obviously does not work too well for a quick comparison between 2 different sources.
Might it be possible to add a command to activate both the analog and digital outputs, e.g.
tt -o 2 ?
The analog outs on a stock Touch are terribly handicapped by the electrolytic capacitors on them. There is a thread over on the SqueezeBox Community Forum about how to bypass those caps. I had it done and the difference is night and day. They are there to block DC but there is really no danger of that.
The AKM 4420 DAC is a very good DAC , and sound quality, after the mod, is simply different from quality external DACs, rather than better or worse. You also can't get impedance matching problems using the internal DAC.
Larry
The AKM 4420 DAC is a very good DAC , and sound quality, after the mod, is simply different from quality external DACs, rather than better or worse. You also can't get impedance matching problems using the internal DAC.
Larry
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+1
Just recently I did the CC mod too.
With a new PS and TT30 in place the Touch sounds not bad at all on its analog out..
Hi Klaus,
With SBS 7.6.1 I have finally got TT3.0 working (and sounding) as you intended it!
It sounds fantastic! Much cleaner than TT2.0 and it has nice deep well defined bass.
The biggest improvement is all round. In comparison TT2.0 is quite muffled sounding. Not that it was bad, as it was a big improvement over the standard unit.
There is great space and air around everything. Clarity is outstanding. I now think the Squeezbox sounds miles better than cPlay. It really is no comparison. Its in a totally different league. I thank you very much.
I'd just like to reiterate that I'm sure the issue was with my PC and SB Media server 7.7.0. and not with TT3.0
I hope you know that at no point I was accusing TT3.0 of being problematic. I knew all along that you know what you are doing, and I trust your ears and programming skills very much.
However whatever was going on with SBMS 7.7.0 was really disgraceful, and warranted all my (hopefully) polite but truthful comments regarding the sound.
I'd really like to get the new media server running as it has some features I'd like to use.
Perhaps a PC upgrade is in order
However running this FW on the touch I did receive an error during the installation process. Do you know what is not activated?
With SBS 7.6.1 I have finally got TT3.0 working (and sounding) as you intended it!
It sounds fantastic! Much cleaner than TT2.0 and it has nice deep well defined bass.
The biggest improvement is all round. In comparison TT2.0 is quite muffled sounding. Not that it was bad, as it was a big improvement over the standard unit.
There is great space and air around everything. Clarity is outstanding. I now think the Squeezbox sounds miles better than cPlay. It really is no comparison. Its in a totally different league. I thank you very much.
I'd just like to reiterate that I'm sure the issue was with my PC and SB Media server 7.7.0. and not with TT3.0
I hope you know that at no point I was accusing TT3.0 of being problematic. I knew all along that you know what you are doing, and I trust your ears and programming skills very much.
However whatever was going on with SBMS 7.7.0 was really disgraceful, and warranted all my (hopefully) polite but truthful comments regarding the sound.
I'd really like to get the new media server running as it has some features I'd like to use.
Perhaps a PC upgrade is in order
However running this FW on the touch I did receive an error during the installation process. Do you know what is not activated?
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Hi erin
Good to see that you finally managed. The same situation I see happening over at SB forums.
Some people slowly but surely sort out a little problem here and there in their chains too and respond with similar feedback.
CPLAY/CMP2
1. Cics is on the wrong OS. I told him years back.
However. It's IMO amazing how far he got though.
My old Linux setup was always better than CPLAY. My friends who were
running CPLAY/CMP2s and Julis in the beginning and than were trying my playback software,
very quickly let CPLAY go.
2. CMP2 HW mods get you -- after a lot of effort -- time & $ --- close ??
to where we start with the Touch. Cics will never have such a low footprint
machine and such a well controlled power supply situation as we do.
3. No to forget. We got an embbeded system that includes the
audio section. What we're doing is more a less a firmware tweak.
Logitech did great to develop something like that at such
a quality. Of course they had to accept compromises to cover a
much wider customer segment then the "audiophiles"
They need a screen, they need a volume control.
Still. As we see today. The HW developpers have done a great job.
The SW designers did also quite good.
Bottom line. Just to repeat it again. If the audio interface manufacturers
would do a better job on decoupling their interfaces from PC induced distortions.
Cics, me and the commercial fraction wouldn't have a story to tell anymore.
However those device get better and better. Meanwhile those effects we achieve
from the source side are very well known to all of them. They just havn't fixed it yet.
I was really surprised how well an Audiphileo II perfromed the other day. I do feel that
the air gets thinner. When is comes to price/performance ratio. There's IMO nothing
out there which comes close to my current setup. ( If I leave my own
efforts out of equation of course )
Cheers
Good to see that you finally managed. The same situation I see happening over at SB forums.
Some people slowly but surely sort out a little problem here and there in their chains too and respond with similar feedback.
CPLAY/CMP2
1. Cics is on the wrong OS. I told him years back.
However. It's IMO amazing how far he got though.
My old Linux setup was always better than CPLAY. My friends who were
running CPLAY/CMP2s and Julis in the beginning and than were trying my playback software,
very quickly let CPLAY go.
2. CMP2 HW mods get you -- after a lot of effort -- time & $ --- close ??
to where we start with the Touch. Cics will never have such a low footprint
machine and such a well controlled power supply situation as we do.
3. No to forget. We got an embbeded system that includes the
audio section. What we're doing is more a less a firmware tweak.
Logitech did great to develop something like that at such
a quality. Of course they had to accept compromises to cover a
much wider customer segment then the "audiophiles"
They need a screen, they need a volume control.
Still. As we see today. The HW developpers have done a great job.
The SW designers did also quite good.
Bottom line. Just to repeat it again. If the audio interface manufacturers
would do a better job on decoupling their interfaces from PC induced distortions.
Cics, me and the commercial fraction wouldn't have a story to tell anymore.
However those device get better and better. Meanwhile those effects we achieve
from the source side are very well known to all of them. They just havn't fixed it yet.
I was really surprised how well an Audiphileo II perfromed the other day. I do feel that
the air gets thinner. When is comes to price/performance ratio. There's IMO nothing
out there which comes close to my current setup. ( If I leave my own
efforts out of equation of course
)Cheers
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CMP / cPlay was really good for when it was released. The concept was correct. Lowering footprint / noise / processes was correct. Unfortunately the PC is a noisy beast. A few people designed massive linear power supplies for their PC. It takes much dedication to do this. I gave Linux PC a go, but obviously the information around a proper Linux PC audiophile setup is not as well documented. I didn't have great results. The funny thing is that some people still to this day argue that Foobar is better than cPlay.
With your mods, TT3.0, the squeezebox is probably the best digital transport I have heard. There might? be digital transports that equal it, but I'm sure they cost a lot more money, and probably not be as user friendly.
So how much of a difference in sound is there between XP and Win7 ?
Is it night and day, or subtle?
thanks
Erin
With your mods, TT3.0, the squeezebox is probably the best digital transport I have heard. There might? be digital transports that equal it, but I'm sure they cost a lot more money, and probably not be as user friendly.
So how much of a difference in sound is there between XP and Win7 ?
Is it night and day, or subtle?
thanks
Erin
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need WIFI
newby, sorry.
just got touch and want to mod it but absolutely NEED to connect to it wifi.
using digital out, controlling with ipod touch, so could still use most mods (ir off, screen off, analog out off, etc.)
in your guys' opinions, will the sound quality still benefit from the mods if I NEED wifi?
thanks in advance.
newby, sorry.
just got touch and want to mod it but absolutely NEED to connect to it wifi.
using digital out, controlling with ipod touch, so could still use most mods (ir off, screen off, analog out off, etc.)
in your guys' opinions, will the sound quality still benefit from the mods if I NEED wifi?
thanks in advance.
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Just to quote myself:
"Hi folks.
For those who can't skip the wireless:
Below you'll find two scenarios to get your wireless situation easily under control.
1.
You build a wireless bridge, which usually also acts as wireless range
extender.
Those wireless bridge devices are almost plug'n play. You don't have to have
an IT degree to get those working.
Example:
a.
Have a look at the Netgear Universal Wireless WN2000RPT WIFI Repeater
This piece comes with 4 LAN ports. You put it right beside your Touch
and connect it with e.g. a 3 foot Monster ethernet cable to your Touch.
On the other side it'll connect wireless to your WLAN router.
b.
There's e.g. a Fritzbox FRITZ!WLAN Repeater 300E (no idea if these are sold overseas) that comes with just one Lan port (of course you could connect a hub here, if you'd need more ports) . The FritzBox comes with DualBand WLAN 2.4 and 5 GHz - You'd be able to use the 5GHz band -- which pretty much nobody uses anyhow -- for your purposes.. ...if you own a dual band router as source of course.
(BTW: Please, let me know if there are better devices then above out there - I just quickly picked those whithout doing an in-depth market research)
Those range extenders are powerful special purpose animals. The performance is much more powerful
than those WLAN receivers that you'll find in any of your devices.
I'd guess that you can even select certain less busy WLAN channels between
repeater and base, which would stabilise your WLAN situation even further.
Folks. It's really not that expensive or complicated.
The great side effect -- beside our special streaming network purpose -- is that you'd for sure improve your overall wireless coverage and throughput in the house.
I might give it a try by myself. You never know. It might beat my current cable setup.
Place your order at Amazon today. Then you'll have something to play around with for the weekend.
2. ( maybe you try below scenario for testing purposes first)
You could try to hookup your standard router directly to the Touch and connect
your remote server wireless. Pretty simple approach. Done in 5 minutes.
Some people I know run a dedicated streaming network this way and are very happy with it.
Of course these people don't connect to internet-radio or similar.
Note: For those who followed my network story on the blog. You probably can skip the hub that I'm using in front of my
Touch with above approaches. I havn't verified it by myself though.
A HW hint:
If you hook up a better PS to your hardwired router/bridge/range extender you'll notice it. ( no,no -- you don't have to feed your router/bridge/hub with Bolder or Teddy Pardo or whatever "audiophile" PS )
Cheers "
"Hi folks.
For those who can't skip the wireless:
Below you'll find two scenarios to get your wireless situation easily under control.
1.
You build a wireless bridge, which usually also acts as wireless range
extender.
Those wireless bridge devices are almost plug'n play. You don't have to have
an IT degree to get those working.
Example:
a.
Have a look at the Netgear Universal Wireless WN2000RPT WIFI Repeater
This piece comes with 4 LAN ports. You put it right beside your Touch
and connect it with e.g. a 3 foot Monster ethernet cable to your Touch.
On the other side it'll connect wireless to your WLAN router.
b.
There's e.g. a Fritzbox FRITZ!WLAN Repeater 300E (no idea if these are sold overseas) that comes with just one Lan port (of course you could connect a hub here, if you'd need more ports) . The FritzBox comes with DualBand WLAN 2.4 and 5 GHz - You'd be able to use the 5GHz band -- which pretty much nobody uses anyhow -- for your purposes.. ...if you own a dual band router as source of course.
(BTW: Please, let me know if there are better devices then above out there - I just quickly picked those whithout doing an in-depth market research)
Those range extenders are powerful special purpose animals. The performance is much more powerful
than those WLAN receivers that you'll find in any of your devices.
I'd guess that you can even select certain less busy WLAN channels between
repeater and base, which would stabilise your WLAN situation even further.
Folks. It's really not that expensive or complicated.
The great side effect -- beside our special streaming network purpose -- is that you'd for sure improve your overall wireless coverage and throughput in the house.
I might give it a try by myself. You never know. It might beat my current cable setup.
Place your order at Amazon today. Then you'll have something to play around with for the weekend.
2. ( maybe you try below scenario for testing purposes first)
You could try to hookup your standard router directly to the Touch and connect
your remote server wireless. Pretty simple approach. Done in 5 minutes.
Some people I know run a dedicated streaming network this way and are very happy with it.
Of course these people don't connect to internet-radio or similar.
Note: For those who followed my network story on the blog. You probably can skip the hub that I'm using in front of my
Touch with above approaches. I havn't verified it by myself though.
A HW hint:
If you hook up a better PS to your hardwired router/bridge/range extender you'll notice it. ( no,no -- you don't have to feed your router/bridge/hub with Bolder or Teddy Pardo or whatever "audiophile" PS )
Cheers "
Last edited:
Just to quote myself:
1.
You build a wireless bridge, which usually also acts as wireless range
extender.
Those wireless bridge devices are almost plug'n play. You don't have to have
an IT degree to get those working.
Example:
a.
Have a look at the Netgear Universal Wireless WN2000RPT WIFI Repeater
This piece comes with 4 LAN ports. You put it right beside your Touch
and connect it with e.g. a 3 foot Monster ethernet cable to your Touch.
On the other side it'll connect wireless to your WLAN router.
Cheers "
Thanks for the quick reply. I just ordered the Netgear Repeater. So much easier than buying a new router and doing the wireless bridge thing. Great idea.
I am not, as you may have ascertained, a software engineer and a lot of this stuff is brand new to me.
I also am on a Mac OS so if I run into problems I'll be back on here begging other mac users to help. So thanks in advance to any of those.
thanks heaps. sorry if I didn't see that advice the first time. I tried looking through the forums but there's a lot of stuff out there.
I just ordered a range extender. great idea.
I'm obviously not a software engineer and much of this stuff is new.
I'm also on Mac OS so will be on here again begging other mac users for help. So thanks to those people in advance.
Any special place to find mac os help with the toolbox 3.0?
I just ordered a range extender. great idea.
I'm obviously not a software engineer and much of this stuff is new.
I'm also on Mac OS so will be on here again begging other mac users for help. So thanks to those people in advance.
Any special place to find mac os help with the toolbox 3.0?
Linux / OSX manual
Great! Thanks!!!
One remark: on Linux / OSX the command:
4. Unpack the archive:
ssh root@Your-Touch-IP-Address
Password: 1234
cd /
tar xvf touchtoolbox3.0.tar <<<<<<<<<<<<
should be:
tar -xvf touchtoolbox3.0-LAN.tar or:
tar -xvf touchtoolbox3.0-WLAN.tar
also a minus-sign and the correct filename
Squeezebox Touch Firmware: 7.7.0-r9550
Great! Thanks!!!
One remark: on Linux / OSX the command:
4. Unpack the archive:
ssh root@Your-Touch-IP-Address
Password: 1234
cd /
tar xvf touchtoolbox3.0.tar <<<<<<<<<<<<
should be:
tar -xvf touchtoolbox3.0-LAN.tar or:
tar -xvf touchtoolbox3.0-WLAN.tar
also a minus-sign and the correct filename
Squeezebox Touch Firmware: 7.7.0-r9550