Don't need to imagine, i have an MTM speaker right behind me with a mid-tweeter that runs from just over 300 Hz up to over 30kHz.
dave
Charles, I completely agree! That's why DIY is our friend. The term getting as much or more for much less, certainly applies here!
Tlnier: I knew what you meant and agree that T.L.s are not nearly as common as your typical ported designs! I certainly appreciate the accurate and open sound they produce while being practical and easy to place! PMC is and exception, as I'm not aware of to many other companies that produce and entire line of T.L.s like they do!
Tlnier: I knew what you meant and agree that T.L.s are not nearly as common as your typical ported designs! I certainly appreciate the accurate and open sound they produce while being practical and easy to place! PMC is and exception, as I'm not aware of to many other companies that produce and entire line of T.L.s like they do!
AMTs are interesting. I still havent got around to getting a good ribbon/AMT/planar tweeter to experiment with, much to my disappointment.
I have been distracted by 'conventional' dynamic cone drivers covering a large BW. P10 has experience of this 'distraction' too
Also the mark audio alpair 5 that i have can cover roughly 300Hz to >20kHz with ease, although, so can the tangband w31285sg and some others, including fostexs'.
I have been distracted by 'conventional' dynamic cone drivers covering a large BW. P10 has experience of this 'distraction' too
Also the mark audio alpair 5 that i have can cover roughly 300Hz to >20kHz with ease, although, so can the tangband w31285sg and some others, including fostexs'.
There are a few HF drivers that can cover 1k to 30k. AMT is just one option.
The real question is why crossover at 1k where the ear is so sensitive. I would XO either below 200Hz or above 4000Hz or both.
Dave,
How is the dispersion of the FF85 vs a good dome tweeter. The other issue (minor) is that the FF85 is limited in SPL (Xmax and power handling). The old one was limited about about 10W.
Like the JX92 and all other similar wideband drivers, I find that most of these drivers have limited dispersion and ragged HF response.
Maybe a 3 way with a wideband in the middle would be the answer to SPL (so the Bass driver deals with the Xmax) and HF smoothness/dispersion (leaf/ribbon/dome/whatever else is your poison).
I dont know if I mentioned this before but Shinobiwan had some 3 way he was building (I forget the name) that used a RAAL ribbon and some expensive Audio Technology drivers. If that is too rich then a eco-version using cheaper drivers from say LCY/HiVi and Morel/Vifa woofers and mids could be considered.
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@ navin
i have a similar experience with 'typical' fullrangers, and this is the reason i tend to stay away from most fostex. My experience with these 'mini drivers' or extended range drivers between 2 and 3 inches is different though. The tangband w2-800sl for eg is fairly wide dispersion and doesnt beam to my ears any more than a conventional dome, could be xo'd below 1k with ease, and most importantly, sounds rather good. This is in comparison to my reference system which uses visaton g20sc 20mm soft dome. This tw is near as ive experienced for smoothness of fr, within +/- 2dB Across its range up til 15k. Undoubtedly an AMT would be transiently better, awkward to cross, and too expensive for me. The alpair5 has very good dispersion but needs some filter work around 5k, and the tangband w3-1285sg is similar, except more directional and can manage without a notch.
Ribbons and the like are nevertheless attractive, but for me its an exercise in economy: which driver would i rather cover the range 3-6k? Easy since i havent found a woofer, yet, that sounds quite right in that range. That leaves the tweeter to deal with it, the problem then is to drop the xo below 1k. Dome mids just havent met the standard in my experience, so that leaves a SMALL wideband driver as the obvious solution for me.
i have a similar experience with 'typical' fullrangers, and this is the reason i tend to stay away from most fostex. My experience with these 'mini drivers' or extended range drivers between 2 and 3 inches is different though. The tangband w2-800sl for eg is fairly wide dispersion and doesnt beam to my ears any more than a conventional dome, could be xo'd below 1k with ease, and most importantly, sounds rather good. This is in comparison to my reference system which uses visaton g20sc 20mm soft dome. This tw is near as ive experienced for smoothness of fr, within +/- 2dB Across its range up til 15k. Undoubtedly an AMT would be transiently better, awkward to cross, and too expensive for me. The alpair5 has very good dispersion but needs some filter work around 5k, and the tangband w3-1285sg is similar, except more directional and can manage without a notch.
Ribbons and the like are nevertheless attractive, but for me its an exercise in economy: which driver would i rather cover the range 3-6k? Easy since i havent found a woofer, yet, that sounds quite right in that range. That leaves the tweeter to deal with it, the problem then is to drop the xo below 1k. Dome mids just havent met the standard in my experience, so that leaves a SMALL wideband driver as the obvious solution for me.
Dispersion is very good. One can consider the FF85 to be a 3/4" tweeter with a very big surround. We have not had any issues with SPL with any of our builds.
Xmax is not an issue when XOed above 300 Hz, and dyamic power handling is much higher than the 10w rating. Now if you are running it down to its limit (about 100 Hz) it will have issues, but still surprises almost everybody.
dave
I certainly remember those from VSAC (2001?). Chris did a nice job on them, IIRC.
Best Regards,
TerryO
the new FF85? link please...
cheers
henry
This what you are looking for?
Fostex FF85WK 3" Full Range: Madisound Speaker Store
dave
"FF85KeN": For your information, Fostex makes no driver with this part number.
I would make low distortion and high dynamic range a priority when spending some coin. The wide-range, inefficient, and low power handling designs will sacrifice one or the other.
It was claimed that a 3" driver has dispersion similar to a 3/4" tweeter. This is essentially an admittance that the driver no longer behaves as a piston for high frequencies. This driver is not advertised as a bending wave transducer...
I would make low distortion and high dynamic range a priority when spending some coin. The wide-range, inefficient, and low power handling designs will sacrifice one or the other.
It was claimed that a 3" driver has dispersion similar to a 3/4" tweeter. This is essentially an admittance that the driver no longer behaves as a piston for high frequencies. This driver is not advertised as a bending wave transducer...
They don't but i do. A matched and treated driver based on the Fostex FF85K
Geddes has shown that this (at least as usually measured) is not as important as many think.
At that point in the thread the question was tweeters that go 1k-35k.
drivers as pistons is one school of thot and brings its own set of problems. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. A bending wave trasducer is a completely different kind of thing and not applicable here at all.
dave
For that kind of music (Rock)_ most of audiophool speakers sounds like C.r.ap (not that they don't sound that way with any other music;0) why don't you buy PA boxes and cover them or put behind the curtain if they don't look to your taste? Or just buy Wilson Audio used as they are said to be the most dynamic sounding conventional speakers on the market. I don't know what's up with you people ,can't you just say no to those gey looking speakers ?Is this an affect of too many sex related commercials in all medias? $10,000 for rock speakers when this supposed to be a music for rebellious, penniles bastards with no future?? I think I'm getting to old ..;0)
Which was also the point I was trying to make. Take a small wide range driver like the FF85 or JX92 or W3-871 (there are dozens of others from Visaton, Beyma, BMS, Ciare etc...). Add a HF driver and a LF driver and crossover and you got a pretty easy system.
See this 5" beyma unit with a 4mm Xmax for example. Given it's Xmax it should not be SPL limited when XOed at say 200Hz. Add a woofer and a tweeter and go.
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/5P200Fe.pdf
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/5MP60NE.pdf
Or mate this 6" to the Fountek Neo5 ribbon and efficient woofer or 2 and have a really efficient (95db/1w/1m) system.
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/6G40 NdE.pdf
What Dave has done (with the extended range of the FF85K) is to eliminate the HF section. Not having Dave's version of the FF85K (I have heard the stock FF85K in an open baffle - more for testing that a real music session) I wont comment on the efficacy of this version of the FF85K vis-a-via a dedicated tweeter like say a Fountek/HiVi ribbon or Vifa XT dome.
Exactly. We Rock-n-rollers have gotten Old. We want to replace our Klipschs with prettier speakers that do the same thing.
Agreed there are many speakers that can do rock darn well and they dont need to cost $10,000 or even $5,000 but if someone wants to listen to rock on $10K speakers why stop them?
When it comes to expensive ($10K) DIY speakers Shinobiwan's Avante and Arora come to my mind first.
Henry,
You cant really compare a a Beyma 12cx + 4 15" woofers to a bookself.
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