Sandy,
We've come to the same conclusion, and there are several that insist that one should kill the screen before playing the Music, as it also cuts down some more noise.
Quite frankly, the Software Engineers were the one's that had the hardest time believing it...that is, until they had enough listening comparisons where they finally could no long have a contrary opinion. There's been some tentative theories as to why many of these things take place, but so far, AFAIK, there isn't any general agreement why there are differences.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I have no trouble believing this at all. But it has nothing to do with the file, or the rip.
If the checksum is the same, the file is the same, period. However, that does not mean that playback is the same. Noise and other problems can be different in different systems.
Ripping to a HDD or USB device makes no difference if the rip is done correctly (not hard). You can even move that file across local or international networks. It remains the same.
The file and the playback of the file are 2 different things. You have to be talking about playback, if a difference is heard. Can system noise get into the playback? Sure. Can it get into the file itself? Not likely. If it did, the checksum would tell you so. Test it for yourself if you don't believe me.
If the checksum is the same, the file is the same, period. However, that does not mean that playback is the same. Noise and other problems can be different in different systems.
Ripping to a HDD or USB device makes no difference if the rip is done correctly (not hard). You can even move that file across local or international networks. It remains the same.
The file and the playback of the file are 2 different things. You have to be talking about playback, if a difference is heard. Can system noise get into the playback? Sure. Can it get into the file itself? Not likely. If it did, the checksum would tell you so. Test it for yourself if you don't believe me.
Michael, perhaps you should try ripping to a USB pen using a Linear PSU instead of the noisy internal +5V USB supply ?
Yes, you can move the file across local or International networks, but the moment that another PC enters the equation to retransmit it, the file is degraded due to PSU induced "Jitter". Interestingly,high resolution commercially made .flac files from the likes of Linn Records and HDD tracks, do not appear to degrade when moved around like .wav files do.
SandyK
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Hi Sandy,
You are objectively wrong.
If there were problems with data corruption because of unclean +5V lines then we'd have bigger problems than loss of fidelity. It would mean that the files you store on the drive would be broken.
There is no dfference between storing on a hard drive, pen drive, SSD, clean 5V, dirty 5v, PWM fans or no PWM fans if you rip it correctly.
If you rip it correctly the file will be exactly the same every time.
There is no difference, period.
You seem to give different media different subjective properties which simply do not exist. What you're proposing is all voodoo.
Data is data. End of story.
mace 1337
Instead of spouting stuff you learnt in a textbook years ago , why don't you try it for yourself ? There are MANY people worldwide who will tell you the same.
I guess that you even believe that all CD/DVD players sound the same when used as transports, or that all copies of CDs must sound the same ?
Terry O and other members of his Audio club, which includes software designers, will tell you they don't !
There are quite a few DIYAudio members in Sydney and the U.K. , Spain, and the U.S.A. who have also been able to pick differences between uploaded .wav files with identical checksums.Power supply induced "Jitter"is a likely cause.
Peter St. who is the lead designer of XXHE software, which plays music files from system memory, is even using different versions of his "engine" where the sound can be quite different between different versions, but the checksums are still identical !
SandyK
XXHighEnd - Index (XXHE)
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Hi,
this is a effect we experienced in our workshops too. From USB-stick over HDD to SSD the audiance regularly heard an improvement in sonic quality.
Now are these no statistically valid blinded tests, but from the number of listeners auditing different setups in different locations and still coming to equal findings, there must be a spark fanning the fire. Admittedly the differences are very small -probabely not noticeable on 90% of all equipment- but I´m convinced they are there. I don´t have an explanation for this, that I could wholeheartedly support. My assumption is that it may be correlated to the power supply lines.
jauu
Calvin
ps. Isn´t this becoming too OT?
this is a effect we experienced in our workshops too. From USB-stick over HDD to SSD the audiance regularly heard an improvement in sonic quality.
Now are these no statistically valid blinded tests, but from the number of listeners auditing different setups in different locations and still coming to equal findings, there must be a spark fanning the fire. Admittedly the differences are very small -probabely not noticeable on 90% of all equipment- but I´m convinced they are there. I don´t have an explanation for this, that I could wholeheartedly support. My assumption is that it may be correlated to the power supply lines.
jauu
Calvin
ps. Isn´t this becoming too OT?
SandyK
As much as i would defend the validity of anyone's listening experience, the above quote makes no sense whatsoever.
I do agree that file format, media, player software, OS, hardware specs all make a difference when playing but the claim that bit-identical files can sound different simply has no physical foundation.
And encoding as flac suddenly renders the files immune?
analog_sa
That is not what many DiYAudio, Rock Grotto, and several Computer Audiophile members have found.
Do you really believe that all CD/DVD transports sound the same when feeding a DAC, or that all CD copies must sound identical if accurately ripped ? ?
If you don't, then surely you do not believe that the digital output of these players, with all the error correction that so many members here claim is nigh on perfect, are outputting different binary streams via their digital outputs ?
Many people will attest that even placing a Transport on a good isolation platform can improve SQ.
Peter St. , the lead designer of XXHE was attacked by several CA members for daring to report that he could hear differences between uploaded .wav files with identical checksums. Now, he routinely adjusts the tonality of files with identical check sums , in the various iterations of the XXHE software.
Why don't you check out his site ?
XXHighEnd - Index.
SandyK
Sandy, please remember this is about playback, not the actual file.
Files ripped to HD, NAT or USB pen show no difference whatsoever in my tests. (And in other peoples tests).
Now playback is a different thing. If the power supply is being polluted by noise from a motor, that could get into the playback.
Two different things.
Don't believe it? Try it. Rip a file to HDD then move a copy of it to USB stick. Listen to both. Do they sound different? If they really do, then it is NOT the file. It's noise in the system effecting the analog side. Find out where to noise is coming from and you'll be ahead of the game.
Files ripped to HD, NAT or USB pen show no difference whatsoever in my tests. (And in other peoples tests).
Now playback is a different thing. If the power supply is being polluted by noise from a motor, that could get into the playback.
Two different things.
Don't believe it? Try it. Rip a file to HDD then move a copy of it to USB stick. Listen to both. Do they sound different? If they really do, then it is NOT the file. It's noise in the system effecting the analog side. Find out where to noise is coming from and you'll be ahead of the game.
This is quite well understood. Identical data but non-identical clocks or jitter. How is this relevant to identical files sounding different with a common clock? There is no embedded clock in the files, neither can they become jittery on a full moon.
Just tried. Sadly i find his style of writing quite intolerable and would rather look for info inside a dumpster than on his site. Otoh, i appreciate the fan boy audience he's managed to cultivate. Very impressively done.
Both his player and DAC may be excellent but i guess i'll never know.
I can accept that playing from different media on different systems with different power supply characteristics etc. can provide different results, but what you are proposing is this:
When you rip a CD to a file (in the most accurate way possible), and then rip it again to a different medium that there is somehow a difference between the rips, even if the files are 100% identical...
Now that is something I cannot accept.
If the files are identical, that's what they are. There is no magical information being stored next to the bits that are already there.
Now when you start to play the file, what happens then is subject to so many variables that there may very well be a difference when the music comes out of the speakers. But the difference will all be made when playing the file, not when ripping it.
No, of course not, I have experienced those differences too of course. There are much more variables in play.
Now this I do not believe. There are other factors in play that will cause them to hear differences, real or imagined. If the files are the same, they are the same.
Jitter or power supply noise does not end up in files. Period. Not possible.
Different engines for playing the files will produce different results? I am not surprised. This "engine" will be introducing those differences. Not the files. The files are the same.
What Calvin mentions above is the curious part of the whole thing. Many people are finding the same things to be true (or seems to be true) and it is indicative that there are factors that haven't been fully appreciated that influence the outcome. What factors are in play isn't fully understood at this point, but the fact is that many of the very people (Software Engineers) that in the recent past had taken the position that there can't be any differences are now trying to find out what causes the differences that they can hear for themselves. Most of the arguments against there being any possibility of a difference, which have been made here on this thread, had previously also been made by these same people.
As Henry Ford once opined:
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't. Either way you're probably right!"
As for being OT, I think that it's central to the discussion as long as the theoretical underpinnings of digital reproductions are being used as an argument as to CDs being superior to LPs.
My arguement, from the very beginning, has been that really good LPs, played over TOTL equipment, is still better sounding than Digital played over TOTL equipment. Given the work being done all over the World to improve upon the digital reproduction of music, I also believe that this will change in the (very near?) future. We're certainly much closer than we were just five years ago, not to mention the early '80's when the "premature death" of LPs was first announced.
Best Regards,
TerryO
mace1337 said:
They are not identical. You must remember that the laser reading the pits and valleys in the reflective material of the disc is an analog process. (Yes, it is.) Needless to say there will be some variables in that. And there is error correction in the data on the disc... suppose you get a 'better' (needing less error correction and re-scan) rip one time, and a 'worse' (lots or error and buffering necessary) rip the next time. There will be variance. That is what makes the rips different.
@6L6
The counter argument to the premise is that the error correcting & level adjustment happens when the data is read from the media & all along the signal chain (inside the computer) - so the variance is equalised by the time the digital data is presented to the DAC for replay i.e the differences have dissappeared!
The counter argument to the premise is that the error correcting & level adjustment happens when the data is read from the media & all along the signal chain (inside the computer) - so the variance is equalised by the time the digital data is presented to the DAC for replay i.e the differences have dissappeared!
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