Which explains of course, why the Sony BluSpec format CDs sound different (better) than the equivalent normal CD in the Sony comparison sets.
That is the selling point from Sony, where the format is quite big in Japan.
I have several BluSpec comparison sets from Sony, and the difference is quite obvious with normal CD players and good quality gear, although it isn't quite so obvious with much more expensive players like the Marantz SA11.
According to you guys, then Sony must be cynically promoting this format for the only reason of being able to sell more back catalogue items, and conning the public ?
Yes, the checksums ARE identical between the supplied BluSpec and normal version of the same CD supplied in the BluSpec comparison sets.
SandyK
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/popular_formats/Blu-spec-CD/index.html
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Different disks will have different jitter etc but I suspect if you rip them both to a hard drive and play them back from there, they will sound the same.
Actually, through my DAC and Class A Headphone amplifier, I can still hear differences, but not quite as pronounced. I have also uploaded some of these Sony comparison .wav files and people with better than average gear are also able to pick the differences.(not via Servers or Wireless links etc. !) But like quite a few other posters here, I am supposed to have a vivid imagination, or worse, according to one of the gang that regularly dispute anything subjective based.
SandyK
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Sy
Many of us do not feel it necessary to continually prove the things we hear during extended and relaxed listening sessions at home to cynical EEs.
The public may not be always right, but it is their input to Audio companies via their wallets, that helps to see improved products developed. It also seems likely that many developments are kept quiet for commercial advantage.
Personally, I would like to see some of these Audio seminars arrange DBT with things such as HDDs and SSDs etc. as part of the program.
Like you, I am also very sceptical about many claims, especially things like polarised speaker cables, Bybees etc., although it may not always appear the case. However, unlike many members here, since receiving a redundancy packago almost 14 years ago, I have been able to devote large amounts of time to experimentation, in conjunction with several other local DIYAudio members etc. who I involve in the process.
No, not all modifications sound better, just because we hope they will !
SandyK
Everyone seems to accept that CD data is digital & that some CDs/rips sound different to others. So we can draw the conclusion that "digital" not = "magically perfect every time" right? The excuse used for explaining the CD issue is that it is an imperfect medium. However does the error correction, etc not compensate for this & make the data "perfect" when read? Obviously not as there are sonic differences! But how can there be sonic differences if the data is error-corrected? Can someone explain this?
In other words, "No." So when statements are made like, "there are sonic differences," they have exactly as much evidentiary weight as, "Fairies and elves live in the forest" or "My butt has been repeatedly probed by space aliens."
As groups of noughts and ones with associated error-correction bits. Any errors will be immediately flagged.
A bit is a bit. It is either a nought or a one. All files carry a checksum. If the checksum matches then the file is identical. There are no 'vagaries'. If you don't understand this then you don't understand how digital files are created and work.
Sy
as a moderator in DIY audio , you would be well aware that comments like that are not only not necessary, but will result in many members not getting involved in discussions !
As your friend Michael will be aware, at least I put my money where my mouth is, and actually construct items such as the +5V Linear PSU for USB devices that I mentioned previously.
However, it seems that talk is cheap here for many who criticise without ever listening for themselves,, or constructing anything. Armchair experts ?
This forum is after all, called DIYAudio, although many seem to have forgotten this, and treat it just as a vehicle to be argumentive, and repeating what they have read elsewhere.
SandyK.
Apples and oranges.Which explains of course, why the Sony BluSpec format CDs sound different (better) than the equivalent normal CD in the Sony comparison sets.
That is the selling point from Sony, where the format is quite big in Japan.
I have several BluSpec comparison sets from Sony, and the difference is quite obvious with normal CD players and good quality gear, although it isn't quite so obvious with much more expensive players like the Marantz SA11.
According to you guys, then Sony must be cynically promoting this format for the only reason of being able to sell more back catalogue items, and conning the public ?
Yes, the checksums ARE identical between the supplied BluSpec and normal version of the same CD supplied in the BluSpec comparison sets.
SandyK
Blu-spec CD
Sure the bluespec may sound better on a CD player, but you're still on the wrong track here. I am not saying that there are no sonic differences between two CD's or CD players or DACs or whatever... I am merely saying that there are no sonic differences between two of the same files on a computer. Even if the two files were extracted using different means. When they are identical they are identical and there is no sonic difference. That's all.
@Alex: Well, it's important to distinguish between demonstrated facts and claimed facts which have not been demonstrated to be true. One hopes that the purveyors of unsubstantiated claims would spend a bit of effort to actually get valid data, especially subjective. If that distinction is unhelpful to discussion, then the discussion isn't really worthwhile, it's nothing but people swapping tall tales about aliens and astrological signs.
Oh Dear. There is a HUGE misunderstanding of how all this works. Despite the best efforts of many here, some just can not understand the difference between a file and the playback of that file. I really don't understand why that is so hard.
IF the checksums of the file agree, the are the same, period. Change 1 single bit and the checksums no longer agree. Try it, I have.
IF there is a real audible difference playing back identical files for different media, then there is something going on in playback. Probably electrical noise. Not data.
CD playback is playback. You don't have a checksum to tell you if he data is correct. (But it likely is). You may also have jitter and other noise depending on the player. Those are legitimate concerns, but have nothing to do with the recorded information.
So there is
But wasn't all this covered many pages ago? Isn't this just a rehash?
FWIW, I am not an "EE type". I hold no degrees of any kind. I learned all this by simply doing it. I listen to audio gear as both the first and final judge. But even I understand how digital files work. And the difference between content and playback.
IF the checksums of the file agree, the are the same, period. Change 1 single bit and the checksums no longer agree. Try it, I have.
IF there is a real audible difference playing back identical files for different media, then there is something going on in playback. Probably electrical noise. Not data.
CD playback is playback. You don't have a checksum to tell you if he data is correct. (But it likely is). You may also have jitter and other noise depending on the player. Those are legitimate concerns, but have nothing to do with the recorded information.
So there is
- The INFORMATION. The recorded file itself. No matter how it is stored, it is easy to make it identical.
- The PLAYBACK. This is a physical operation and at some stages it is analog. Moving the bits accurately is not difficult. Getting them to arrive in perfect time may be. And of course the analog stage of the D/A conversion is just as susceptible to noise as any other analog stage.
But wasn't all this covered many pages ago? Isn't this just a rehash?
This makes it obvious to me you don't know who are are talking to. Who here hasn't built? And even designed from scratch? Who are these "many"? If you can supply names, I can probably supply a list of their designs and projects. Maybe even photos.
FWIW, I am not an "EE type". I hold no degrees of any kind. I learned all this by simply doing it. I listen to audio gear as both the first and final judge. But even I understand how digital files work. And the difference between content and playback.
I do not ... and reading this thread I don't fell any loneliness. In my jobs I transfer terabytes of data everyday in all kind of devices ranging from SSD to HDD and DAT tapes, DLT tapes etc ... At the end, when I produce the checksums (which is a check weather a file is exactly the same) and they always agree (1 error in 4 years due to a power failure).
As somebody else mentionned, data and software is much more sensitive to bit errors than music.
@pano,
I know it's playback when talking about CD & Alex has stated that different CDs sound different even though these are checksum exactly the same! So this needs to be explained!
BTW, Sy, I have PMed & emailed you a number of times & you haven't answered so I guess I'll have to do the communication here " Any idea when you will post my Hiface + attenuators to the address I gave you (3 weeks ago)?" I would prefer you to send this via registered post it as I don't wish it to go missing. As I said, I will pay for this, if this is the problem!
I know it's playback when talking about CD & Alex has stated that different CDs sound different even though these are checksum exactly the same! So this needs to be explained!
BTW, Sy, I have PMed & emailed you a number of times & you haven't answered so I guess I'll have to do the communication here " Any idea when you will post my Hiface + attenuators to the address I gave you (3 weeks ago)?" I would prefer you to send this via registered post it as I don't wish it to go missing. As I said, I will pay for this, if this is the problem!
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We are not talking about bit errors in audio, we are talking about timing errors - this is the mistake you are making!
Which explains of course, why the Sony BluSpec format CDs sound different (better) than the equivalent normal CD in the Sony comparison sets.
It is becoming obvious that you simply cannot distinguish the borderline between the physically possible and the outright fantastic. Nothing in the least strange about different CDs, holding the same datasets sounding different. Simply because the physical quality of the recording will have an effect upon the reconstructed clock during playback. Or the servos will modulate the PS noise differently. Many possibilities. Files are an entirely different thing. If checksums seem too complex and suspicious go for a bit comparison or just print both files as binary and compare them by hand
Michael
You may as well put on your Cop's hat and close this thread now, because you are NEVER going to convince the many people that hear these differences that they are delusional. And yes, I am fully aware of the need for checksums in programs, as I have had past experience of Telecommunications Processors and Data stores crashing, or changing over due to checksums no longer matching.
Alex
It is becoming obvious that you simply cannot distinguish the borderline between the physically possible and the outright fantastic. Nothing in the least strange about different CDs, holding the same datasets sounding different. Simply because the physical quality of the recording will have an effect upon the reconstructed clock during playback. Or the servos will modulate the PS noise differently. Many possibilities. Files are an entirely different thing. If checksums seem too complex and suspicious go for a bit comparison or just print both files as binary and compare them by hand
BUT, you can't divorce "Files" from the underlying storage medium on which they reside & this is Alex's point, I think! It may be all down to PS noise due to the handling of the medium on which the files reside!
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