No hostilities on my part, after all you did call me 'friend' a while back.
I'll just add this 'hostilities' to your list of claims which come with zero evidence...Guido Tent thinks otherwise to you, I'd guess he's got a little more experience - you're arguing from ignorance as you've already admitted. So once again, stretching the meaning of 'reasonably'...
Show your reasoning please. You've already claimed the mod has 'no value' so you're basing this claim on the previous claim perchance?
I have no idea what those are, care to elucidate and perhaps I'll be able to show how the analogy you're suggesting is as broken as your other arguments.
Yet another unsupported claim
Interesting that you request others provide 'proof' for their claims but don't hold yourself to the same standards you set.If I had, I'm not going to be interested in 'proving' anything about it. I'd be way too busy using it to make perfect (CHF denominated) spread bets on the date of the collapse of the US dollar or some similar activities. How would 'proving' something about it help me or anyone else?
Good evening Abrax,
I am not really sure what your main points are, or what you are trying to accomplish. My assumption is that you are in support of this modification, and that is fine with me.
At this point, it would appear, reasonable communication has ended. Perhaps there is a language barrier? Although I do not agree with some of your points of view, I enjoyed parts of our conversation.
To those responsible for this modification and its claimed performance increase: I remain skeptical but open minded. If ever someone decides to post up some proof, I would certainly be interested.
JF
I am not really sure what your main points are, or what you are trying to accomplish. My assumption is that you are in support of this modification, and that is fine with me.
At this point, it would appear, reasonable communication has ended. Perhaps there is a language barrier? Although I do not agree with some of your points of view, I enjoyed parts of our conversation.
To those responsible for this modification and its claimed performance increase: I remain skeptical but open minded. If ever someone decides to post up some proof, I would certainly be interested.
JF
Greetings J.R.F.
I think if I had a main point it would be this - savour the irony of you coming into this thread saying the mod's worthless and asking for proof when all along your claim was baseless.
I'm not particularly 'in support' of the modification as I am not aware of the details of it. But I'm certainly in support of pushing the boundaries of our understanding of what's important in digital audio design, and it appears at this stage that jkeny's mod might help in this regard.
You once again use the word 'reasonable' in an idiosyncratic manner, so I'm at a loss to comment on your perception that 'reasonable communication has ended'. I've enjoyed the interaction with you too.
I think if I had a main point it would be this - savour the irony of you coming into this thread saying the mod's worthless and asking for proof when all along your claim was baseless.
I'm not particularly 'in support' of the modification as I am not aware of the details of it. But I'm certainly in support of pushing the boundaries of our understanding of what's important in digital audio design, and it appears at this stage that jkeny's mod might help in this regard.
You once again use the word 'reasonable' in an idiosyncratic manner, so I'm at a loss to comment on your perception that 'reasonable communication has ended'. I've enjoyed the interaction with you too.
JF, it's good that you now have an open mind about this - at least something has been achieved. As Abrax said, it's a pity you didn't have this open mind when you barged into this thread & bullishly & unequivocally claimed it was useless.
BTW, I wonder did the O/P ever do the mod & what were his results?
Finally, I don't do this mod in my product - I leave the USB 5V as-is but I do supply a clean, independent 3.3V to the clocks & a separate clean 3.3V supply to the clock handling circuits. All the details of how to do this I documented in a thread on this & other forums. Nevertheless, the USB 5V mod is worthwhile & I advise the O/P to try it - it costs nothing to try.
BTW, I wonder did the O/P ever do the mod & what were his results?
Finally, I don't do this mod in my product - I leave the USB 5V as-is but I do supply a clean, independent 3.3V to the clocks & a separate clean 3.3V supply to the clock handling circuits. All the details of how to do this I documented in a thread on this & other forums. Nevertheless, the USB 5V mod is worthwhile & I advise the O/P to try it - it costs nothing to try.
What leads you to believe that there are audible differences? There MAY be, but as yet, no evidence.
No, what I'm asking for is measurements of the results, that is, changes in the analog output. I don't listen to SPDIF signals, nor (I suspect) do you. If there are analog changes, then it's plausible that there could be audible differences.
No, I listen to analogue with an instrument that you also own - ears (we may have calibration differences
).But, I don't understand your request for the a demonstration of changes in the analogue signal. Surely, if one wants to demonstrate a direct link between a modification & it's change to the signal, one measures the signal at the earliest point possible after the change, not when it has been through pre-amp & amplifier circuitry?
No, I don't think so. The analog signal is what's important- if it remains unchanged after a mod, then it's highly unlikely that there are any audible effects. If it does change, at least it's possible that the anecdotes describe a real phenomenon.
Let me propose a poor analogy- someone claims that putting nitrogen in their tires makes their car's top speed higher. They want to show this by monitoring pressure changes in the tires with and without nitrogen. Wouldn't it be more logical to just measure the top speed?
You do realise, Sy, that not all sonic changes are currently measurable! Why not use the final arbiter of sound change & exquisite instrument - your ears. I understand your need to have a demonstrable set of measures but you must also realise that the instrumentation is not up to the job - how do you measure sound stage depth, for instance or instrument timbre or sonic tails? Show me an FFT that demonstrates these effects!
You are also going against the scientific principle which is to demonstrate the cause/effect as clearly as possible i.e without other introduced distortions (DAC, pre-amp & amp)
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You're asking about interpretation of differences. the first question, though, is "are there any differences to interpret?"
So if there's jitter, noise, whatever (and that's what you've claimed), these are MEASURABLE effects on the analog output stream. They are either there or they aren't. It will take you about 15 minutes to get some data. I'd do it except that I don't have any USB devices to hand, and the effect on Firewire and PCI devices that I do have was zero.
So if there's jitter, noise, whatever (and that's what you've claimed), these are MEASURABLE effects on the analog output stream. They are either there or they aren't. It will take you about 15 minutes to get some data. I'd do it except that I don't have any USB devices to hand, and the effect on Firewire and PCI devices that I do have was zero.
So the first job is to show differences exist from the mod then the arguments can start as to how to interpret these differences, agreed. I'm saying the scope shots show the differences, you're saying you want to move to step 2 & prove these differences will result in X changes to the analogue sound.
I ask you to show me an example of any analogue measurement that shows sound stage depth, instrument timbre, etc. If you can't show these how can you ask for a measurement that shows a change in these? Clever argument but it doesn't float, I'm afraid.
If it has an effect, yes. The whole reason anyone cares about jitter is because of the effects on the analog output (sidebands, distortion). If it didn't, it would be a total non-issue.
Crosstalk, separation, frequency response, distortion. All absolutely measurable. Why don't you give it a try?
Instead of just making this statement - show me an analogue plot that demonstrates jitter or a change in jitter! I'm really interested. You seem to put great store in these measurements so you must have examples - please show me an example of what you are saying is measurable!
Before you ask me to show you how mods change these measurements, show me that they are measurable (i.e I'll show you mine if you show me yours
)
As I said show me an analogue measurement example of sound stage depth, instrument timbre, sonic tails of instruments or else admit that you can't & stop the pretence that everything is measurable. Why don't you give it a try?
If you can't demonstrate this then your demands for others to demonstrate it are a ruse, at best, & disingenuous!
Jkeny. Google is your friend. Jitter measurements and techniques are everywhere.
As for timbre and soundstage measurements, here are some hints.
Check out the work of Wegel & Lane (USA 1930s) Kuriyakawa (Japan 1960s) Matti Otala (Finland 1970-80s) and a large body of recent work on distortion. AES library.
Even the Stereophile Test CD #2 has a jitter test. These are good places to start.
Much of this can be measured with modest home equipment now available.
As for timbre and soundstage measurements, here are some hints.
Check out the work of Wegel & Lane (USA 1930s) Kuriyakawa (Japan 1960s) Matti Otala (Finland 1970-80s) and a large body of recent work on distortion. AES library.
Even the Stereophile Test CD #2 has a jitter test. These are good places to start.
Much of this can be measured with modest home equipment now available.
SY's claim was that jitter could be shown on the measurement of the analogue output as well as soundstage, instrument timbre, sonic tails of instruments - I wanted him to show plots of the analogue measurements of these before he demands of me to prove that any modifications change these - simple really!
If he can show this, it would be of great service to all & would advance the understanding of what we hear Vs what we measure. I believe he can't produce these plots because the instrumentation or measurement techniques are not sophisticated enough & therefore he uses this false argument to deny that these mods result in changes. I believe this exposes his false argument!
Of course he will deny that he said this (in fact he said that everything that we can hear is measurable)! Fact remains, he needs to show that these can be measured first or else his argument is without foundation!
Panomaniac, can you show a plot of the analogue output in which you can identify the parts that relate to jitter? to soundstage? to instrument timbre? to sonic tails of instruments? - I would love to see it - please produce it here! The references you have given talk about distortion but can you say what distortion (or rather lack of it) gives rise to the above phenomena I just listed?
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I also see that some posts were pulled.
Let me state some useful information that was in these pulled posts - more than 60 people can hear these improvements - there is no denying that (no matter how much wants to disclaim their opinions - I have given some links to their posts & there are others here who have done this & heard the same). If you deny all this evidence as hearsay, fine - it reveals more about your frame of reference than about the evidence.
Sy, it's also ironic that you say it's only the analogue signal & measurement that is of interest as that's what we hear & then you deny what over 60 people hear!
Let me state some useful information that was in these pulled posts - more than 60 people can hear these improvements - there is no denying that (no matter how much wants to disclaim their opinions - I have given some links to their posts & there are others here who have done this & heard the same). If you deny all this evidence as hearsay, fine - it reveals more about your frame of reference than about the evidence.
Sy, it's also ironic that you say it's only the analogue signal & measurement that is of interest as that's what we hear & then you deny what over 60 people hear!
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