hillbear
Another alternative could be something like the kit at the attached link,
which is from Silicon Chip magazine.
SandyK
Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier
Another alternative could be something like the kit at the attached link,
which is from Silicon Chip magazine.
SandyK
Altronics - Your One Stop Audio Visual & Electronics Supplier
As Star882 said : If the interface passes audio then there's no benefit to be had by providing "clean" power.
The design of the converter and to a lesser extent that your audio is going over USB has a far greater impact on any perceived sonic deficiency. Unfortunately neither of those is easily solved without replacing the whole thing.
The design of the converter and to a lesser extent that your audio is going over USB has a far greater impact on any perceived sonic deficiency. Unfortunately neither of those is easily solved without replacing the whole thing.
Good find Alex, a very useful kit & cheap price - I'll get one of these.
Hillbear, if you are DIYing this, then psychobiker is correct - you need to snip the red (+5V) wire & connect your own "clean" 5V supply here BUT don't cut the black (ground) wire just splice in your external ground.
The people who say that there's no benefit, I hope are not using the bits is bits argument! The 5V if used to power the connecting equipment is of course important & it's crazy to say otherwise!
Hillbear, if you are DIYing this, then psychobiker is correct - you need to snip the red (+5V) wire & connect your own "clean" 5V supply here BUT don't cut the black (ground) wire just splice in your external ground.
The people who say that there's no benefit, I hope are not using the bits is bits argument! The 5V if used to power the connecting equipment is of course important & it's crazy to say otherwise!
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Nah, just saying that I fail to see the value in this particular mod in this particular situation.
The tolerance of these things is pretty high, and if feeding it clean power makes a real difference I'll be stunned and take back what I've said with an apology.
The clocking on that thing I thing I'm certain will be the biggest issue impacting any sonics. However, I've been wrong before, and I will be again..
Making the mod won't upset things though govern the clear advice given already.
The tolerance of these things is pretty high, and if feeding it clean power makes a real difference I'll be stunned and take back what I've said with an apology.
The clocking on that thing I thing I'm certain will be the biggest issue impacting any sonics. However, I've been wrong before, and I will be again..
Making the mod won't upset things though govern the clear advice given already.
Well prepare to apologise! I've done these mods (& many more) to the Hiface & the 5V supply makes a difference as the Hiface uses this USB 5V, regulates it down to 3.3V & powers the clocks & other chips from it.
BTW, the biggest leap in sonics is from providing clean 3.3V power directly to the clocks!
BTW, the biggest leap in sonics is from providing clean 3.3V power directly to the clocks!
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Here's the circuit diagram for that kit if you want to build it yourself (this is DIY isn't it?)
USB Power Injector For External Hard Drives Circuit Diagram
USB Power Injector For External Hard Drives Circuit Diagram
I see your point.
However this is getting off track a little. The original question has been answered although I still have doubts that it will be worth doing.
To prove if there is ACTUAL benefit rather than a belief that there is an improvement (In this specific case) will take me doing a double blind test or someone posting clear data showing that jitter is improved as a result.
The first is not likely to happen as I don't have access to the same interface and PC. The second is more involved, and will likely take more than simply posting some basic scope traces - unless the improvement is that huge.
Any takers willing to spend time on quantitatively demonstrating the improvement?
Until then we're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.
However this is getting off track a little. The original question has been answered although I still have doubts that it will be worth doing.
To prove if there is ACTUAL benefit rather than a belief that there is an improvement (In this specific case) will take me doing a double blind test or someone posting clear data showing that jitter is improved as a result.
The first is not likely to happen as I don't have access to the same interface and PC. The second is more involved, and will likely take more than simply posting some basic scope traces - unless the improvement is that huge.
Any takers willing to spend time on quantitatively demonstrating the improvement?
Until then we're going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.
At the (substantial) risk of delving into philosophy, John's belief here is quite irrelevant. He hears a difference, that's actually a benefit to him.
If you'd like to do the experiment yourself and report your findings, please do so. Double blind tests not mandatory
From my pov, the jury's still out as to whether the improvement is jitter related or just comes about by reducing the RF hash present in the system. Whatever the explanation though, the improvement is real enough to jkeny and to at least one other guy he sent a modded HiFace to.
So its your belief that the mod's unnecessary? What do you base your belief on?
Beliefs are funny things, but particularly when it comes to digital audio I do my best to stick with proven fact or mathematical proof. If I don't have enough information then I'll fall back to empirical evidence wherever possible. After that it's time to break out my past experience and make a judgement call. I'm the first to admit that I have been wrong before and will be again for certain in the future.*
If someone believes they have had a positive change in performance after spending a few hours and some $ tweaking up a box they that's great for them.*
The question is should others reading about the tweak, hearing the positive comments then spend their $ and time on doing the same mod? At that point if they hear a positive change is it because of a belief/placebo effect, or is there something real going on? The more people who observe the effect, the more likely that there is something real going on. That said I've seen large groups of people all claim miraculous improvements in their audio was brought about by something that in itself absolutely would make no difference to the results.
If it's real, what are the objective, observable improvements. Doubleblind listening is valid for subjective improvements. If there is a proven benefit then what's causing it?
In this case I don't have enough evidence to go beyond using my past experience in such things. Until your post I wasn't even aware that others had witnessed a change, which is why I was highly skeptical. Now there are at least a few reported cases that this mod really improving things then if true the potential implications for the multi-million dollar computer audio industry are huge if this is a general case.
It maybe that this specific device was particularly badly designed and providing it stable power works around it's own limitations. If it turns out that providing separate power to all or many bus powered devices produces produces improvement then a lot of very well respected manufacturers are wrong in their approach.
I'm not smart enough to know which is the case, but going on experience and other situations I take my opening position of doubting that providing clean power to a device like this would make a difference. Those companies I mentioned earlier have a vested interest in delivering a qualitative edge in a competitive market and have the knowledge to get that edge. However I don't see them doing things like this unless their device draws too much current for the bus.
I've certainly never observed deficiencies that would be fixed by this, and if the likes of Fairlight and Apogee appear to have no issues caused by "dirty" 5v power from a regulated PSU then it points to this specific case not being a general one.
That supports my skepticism, but being a skeptic doesn't preclude changing opinion
*I think we wound up in philosophy before this post, but I'm with you on trying to avoid turning this into theology followed by religious war.
Part of growing and learning is being wrong sometimes, so I'm certainly open to the possibility that I'm off base here
If someone believes they have had a positive change in performance after spending a few hours and some $ tweaking up a box they that's great for them.*
The question is should others reading about the tweak, hearing the positive comments then spend their $ and time on doing the same mod? At that point if they hear a positive change is it because of a belief/placebo effect, or is there something real going on? The more people who observe the effect, the more likely that there is something real going on. That said I've seen large groups of people all claim miraculous improvements in their audio was brought about by something that in itself absolutely would make no difference to the results.
If it's real, what are the objective, observable improvements. Doubleblind listening is valid for subjective improvements. If there is a proven benefit then what's causing it?
In this case I don't have enough evidence to go beyond using my past experience in such things. Until your post I wasn't even aware that others had witnessed a change, which is why I was highly skeptical. Now there are at least a few reported cases that this mod really improving things then if true the potential implications for the multi-million dollar computer audio industry are huge if this is a general case.
It maybe that this specific device was particularly badly designed and providing it stable power works around it's own limitations. If it turns out that providing separate power to all or many bus powered devices produces produces improvement then a lot of very well respected manufacturers are wrong in their approach.
I'm not smart enough to know which is the case, but going on experience and other situations I take my opening position of doubting that providing clean power to a device like this would make a difference. Those companies I mentioned earlier have a vested interest in delivering a qualitative edge in a competitive market and have the knowledge to get that edge. However I don't see them doing things like this unless their device draws too much current for the bus.
I've certainly never observed deficiencies that would be fixed by this, and if the likes of Fairlight and Apogee appear to have no issues caused by "dirty" 5v power from a regulated PSU then it points to this specific case not being a general one.
That supports my skepticism, but being a skeptic doesn't preclude changing opinion
*I think we wound up in philosophy before this post, but I'm with you on trying to avoid turning this into theology followed by religious war.
Part of growing and learning is being wrong sometimes, so I'm certainly open to the possibility that I'm off base here
Philosophy of perception 101
I'm not totally clear about 'proven fact' but it seems to me that whatever we experience (perceive) with our senses comes into the category of evidence. So when somebody hears something, that in itself counts as evidence. Just as in the visual world, there are optical illusions, so audible illusions exist too. Science still gets along fine even accounting for optical illusions - we attempt to explain how they occur by cross checking our vision in other ways. Donald Hoffman's website is a good one in this regard : Visual illusions
You say 'If someone believes...' but this is a red herring. When the discussion starts talking about people's beliefs, we're out of the realm of science and moving rapidly towards religion. So let's not go there (besides, its banned here for good reason). I prefer to rephrase your statement (and it fits better in this particular context) 'If someone hears a positive change... then that's great for them'.
For people reading about the tweak, yes scepticism is no bad thing. Not every claim made on this forum about things people hear needs to be taken seriously. For myself, I ignore people's claims to hear things in which they do not describe what they hear and the context in which they hear it (for example, which music etc.). So saying 'I hear a positive change' is simply not sufficient, to be convinced I need to be able to get what they're hearing and then I'll try to correlate that with my mental heuristic.
Do you think that the computer audio industry is not aware of improvements to power supplies making sound improvements? I haven't examined my Asus soundcard to find out if they have a regulated supply for the clock but I might just have a look.... My guess is its a little unwise to treat the computer audio industry as one homogeneous block - probably this knowledge is sprinkled thinly around various specialists.
I'm not totally clear about 'proven fact' but it seems to me that whatever we experience (perceive) with our senses comes into the category of evidence. So when somebody hears something, that in itself counts as evidence. Just as in the visual world, there are optical illusions, so audible illusions exist too. Science still gets along fine even accounting for optical illusions - we attempt to explain how they occur by cross checking our vision in other ways. Donald Hoffman's website is a good one in this regard : Visual illusions
You say 'If someone believes...' but this is a red herring. When the discussion starts talking about people's beliefs, we're out of the realm of science and moving rapidly towards religion. So let's not go there
(besides, its banned here for good reason). I prefer to rephrase your statement (and it fits better in this particular context) 'If someone hears a positive change... then that's great for them'.For people reading about the tweak, yes scepticism is no bad thing. Not every claim made on this forum about things people hear needs to be taken seriously. For myself, I ignore people's claims to hear things in which they do not describe what they hear and the context in which they hear it (for example, which music etc.). So saying 'I hear a positive change' is simply not sufficient, to be convinced I need to be able to get what they're hearing and then I'll try to correlate that with my mental heuristic.
Do you think that the computer audio industry is not aware of improvements to power supplies making sound improvements? I haven't examined my Asus soundcard to find out if they have a regulated supply for the clock but I might just have a look....
My guess is its a little unwise to treat the computer audio industry as one homogeneous block - probably this knowledge is sprinkled thinly around various specialists.I think you will find >60 other people so far hear a marked improvement in sound from the modifications to the Hiface (no need for dB ABX testing) - some of these people have posted here Review: Jkeny’s modified Hiface - Page 12 - Head-Fi.org Community Others have posted in other audio forums.
No need to bring jitter into it - the O/P asked about USB 5V PS & the sonic benefit of improving it? It probably will provide an improvement in sound depending on how good his current USB 5V supply is - this is variable between computers. This is just improving the 5V supply - if he goes further & improves the 3.3V supply to the clocks, he will find a substantial benefit.
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It's not just customers but people who have DIYed these mods which I & others documented here & on that forum.
I was using the word 'customers' in a broad sense, not at all limited to people paying you money...
I have seen many enthusiastic reports about John Kenny's 3.3V Lithium battery modification to the HiFace in several different forums. e.g. HeadFi and Rock Grotto.
Many people have also reported marked improvements with the Buffalo DACs when the DAC , including the clock, is supplied by very good shunt regulators.The Salas is often used there, but the Paul Hynes regulators seem to be the most favoured.
SandyK
Fundamental theories of digital electronics. He is correct: this mod is not necessary.
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