Its too big - whats so hard to understand? And its way higher power than the woofer so this power handling is wasted on the Harper. Its actually wasted on the Nathan as well. A smaller tweeter on the Nathan may make some sense.
Dr. Geddes, I know you mentioned using TAD drivers at one point, but finding the B&C drivers being just as good or good enough at least. Do your own Summa's have the TAD drivers or B&C drivers?
Also, have you experimented at all with the DE500, which appears to be a neodmium motored titanium diaphragm driver of similar specs to the DE250.
I know there has been some talk, even from me, over upgrading the drivers, with greatest focus on the midbass drivers. I came around on that, but when I really think about it, I'd guess that if one driver over the other was going to make the bigger difference, it might be upgrading the compression driver. Of course, it's still going to come down to the overall design anyway, would potentially require a lot of crossover changes, and the big cost increase may offer no real performance improvements to speak of. I think many of us just like to tweak endlessly, even if it serves no real purpose.
Also, have you experimented at all with the DE500, which appears to be a neodmium motored titanium diaphragm driver of similar specs to the DE250.
I know there has been some talk, even from me, over upgrading the drivers, with greatest focus on the midbass drivers. I came around on that, but when I really think about it, I'd guess that if one driver over the other was going to make the bigger difference, it might be upgrading the compression driver. Of course, it's still going to come down to the overall design anyway, would potentially require a lot of crossover changes, and the big cost increase may offer no real performance improvements to speak of. I think many of us just like to tweak endlessly, even if it serves no real purpose.
My speakers have always been B&C, even though I built some with TADs, I couldn't personaly afford the TADs. I have tried the DE500 and found it pretty much the same as the DE250, but twice the price. I don't actually expect that there could be much of an improvement on the DE250 within the existing marketplace. Most likely would be a BMS, but they would cost me a lot more and I don't see the potential advantage except maybe a little more energy above 15 kHz. You can just guess how much I think thats worth.
I would love to improve the woofer because of its internal resonances, but nothing that I have tested is any better and only costs more. Again, kind of "what's the point". You see I don't believe anything that I read or see in terms of specs, I test everything myself under identical conditions. Then you find out that what's being said and shown as measurments doesn't really stand up under scrutiny.
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Compression drivers are frustrating, because the cost of entry is so high. For instance, I could name ten or twenty excellent tweeters for under a hundred a pair, and even a few for fifty per pair. You could even make a decent speaker with a twenty dollar pair of tweeters.
Yet while there are dozens of excellent and affordable tweeters, I couldn't name a single compression driver that I could live with that costs less than a hundred bucks.
That's why I'm using the BMS 4540ND in my car, and the B&C at home. There just aren't many other options that offer comparable performance at this price point, and nothing cheaper thats competitive.
But one of your customers "discovered" a compression driver that's quite interesting. The size is comparable to the BMS, in fact a little bit smaller. And it uses a smaller diaphragm, which extends the high frequency response. Admittedly, the power handling suffers, and it can't be crossed over as low as the B&C. But it's less than half the price as the BMS!
I have a pair sitting here on the counter, I'll be doing some measurements and posting them soon. Brandon (augerpro) was the one that turned me onto this one. He's posted some measurements and pics online.
Are you talking about the Celestion? They are doing what all new "brands" have to do and that is to come onto the market at below average prices. But I don't have a source for them and they end up costing me more than the B&C, which doesn't seem so compelling. To me the deals are all in China. With a near DE250 for under $20, why look any further?
Looks like closed back 6-8"
So its not a dipole/OB, even i it could appear so
Celestion have some of those too
Maybe one of these
http://professional.celestion.com/pro/products/tf/detail.asp?ID=2
http://professional.celestion.com/pro/products/tf/detail.asp?ID=3
I would like to know more about the midrange waveguide, like who makes that one
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Yes, the Celestion is quite an oddball. I'm surprised Brandon stumbled across it. It isn't sold by anyone stateside that I am aware of. But you can purchase it directly from QSC for $65, which is basically half the price of BMS. His measurements look promising.
I need to do my own measurements, but the driver looks promising, particularly since there are so few options below $100, or $75.
As for $20 B&C clones, I have no idea where I would get those.
Here are the specs on the Celestion: professional.celestion.com/pro/rd/pdfs/CDX11425.pdf
John
E-mail me on the side and I can quote you very attractive prices on B&C stuff. The DE250 clones are from Boke Audio in Guangzhou. They are on the internet (http://www.bokeaudio.com/boke2009/) and they will send you drivers, but one off and shiping makes them just a bit lower than what I get the B&Cs for. They quoted us $17 each in lots of 100 FOB their factory. If we bought 1000 they would make any changes that we wanted and brand them ours, all for the same price. Now that I am going to China regularly I may bring some back with me. The Celestion are made in China I believe. But for small volumes just get B&Cs from me.
Exciting stuff! Compression drivers are like gold dust hear in the UK.... good ones at a reasonable price are impossible... even the celestion mentioned above is over £50 each here... $100.... Which of their products is the B&C clone? If you'd rather not say in open forum than a pm would be brilliant!
Many thanks sir geddes!
You misread, I never said that anything from Celestion was a B&C clone. I said that the Chinese make a B&C clone. Celestion's stuff is all of their own design as far as I know. They have written a lot of papers on their designs.
I only see two compression drivers listed on the site.
http://www.parts-express.com//pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=294-604&ctab=15
B&C DE 25
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.bokeaudio.com/boke2009/product.asp?sid=8&nid=93&id=352
Boke Ang 44-1TI
New Subs
Earl, are you able to give a rough estimate on lead times for a pair of your subs ? I was planning on building some myself to go along with my Nathans but after seeing the recent pictures of your finished design i think i may just let you build me a set. If you prefer i can email you on the side.
For what its worth i prefer a non photo-shopped picture of your speaker designs if only because they look like real speakers rather than a digital representation of what they might look like.
Thanks for your time , Daniel
Earl, are you able to give a rough estimate on lead times for a pair of your subs ? I was planning on building some myself to go along with my Nathans but after seeing the recent pictures of your finished design i think i may just let you build me a set. If you prefer i can email you on the side.
For what its worth i prefer a non photo-shopped picture of your speaker designs if only because they look like real speakers rather than a digital representation of what they might look like.
Thanks for your time , Daniel
Daniel
Interesting perspective. I am in the process of expanding my facilities and thats making things slow right now, but when done I expect the throughput to double which should half the lead time. I'd say 4-6 weeks for subs at this point.
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