There will always be young people with fresh ears who believe that making a musical sounding amplifier can be done with little or no electronics knowledge. In the meantime, us old deaf people will continue to struggle to design genuine hi-fi as we find practical solutions to all the engineering problems which the universe throws at us, while carefully avoiding making any musical amplifiers.Tjj266 said:
Before you start thinking about making amps for a living (or even a sideline) you had better be damn good at designing and building. Building a commercial amp is LOT more than stuffing a circuit board of your own design. You have to deal with metal work, panels, connectors, feet , outsourcing and contracting. And the manual. And design the transport packaging - maybe even have to make it too. This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
Commercial kit must comply with a whole raft of legislation, safety, rf interfence etc. This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
Direct selling - looks like a good idea. Better outsource the website but you still have to keep it updated and deal with the orders and enquiries This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
Then you get an order and have to pack it up and take it the post office and insure it etc etc And then some kit will come back and numpties will not make it work properly And then some will come back for repair This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
And you still want to go to a regular job? And have time for anyone else in your life?
It is MUCH harder than you think to start a manufacturing business.
Commercial kit must comply with a whole raft of legislation, safety, rf interfence etc. This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
Direct selling - looks like a good idea. Better outsource the website but you still have to keep it updated and deal with the orders and enquiries This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
Then you get an order and have to pack it up and take it the post office and insure it etc etc And then some kit will come back and numpties will not make it work properly And then some will come back for repair This will take away all of your time for building yourself.
And you still want to go to a regular job? And have time for anyone else in your life?
It is MUCH harder than you think to start a manufacturing business.
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That´s a BIG point.
Fresh ears are fine and desirable, nobody questions that, but all they can do is notice "something is happening", (IF it´s happening that is), but not exactly what it is or even worse, how to get it, which requires deep knowledge, usually acquired through long study and experience, both go hand in hand.
Lacking it, there is always the huge temptation to attributethat desirable "something" to some random part or another, (still not knowing "how" or "why" it may happen) which usually leads to some obsession about a single part type (magic capacitors or resistors, dielectrics, pure copper or silver wiring, etc.) while amplifiers (and everything else) are not a bucketload of parts thrown together but a full *system* of interacting parts.
Agree and add: also agree that at certain point real ears are needed: then they can be hired: get a bunch of people the kind you are interested in, high school students with pristine ears if you wish, split them into a test and a control group and subject them to all the blind and double blind tests you need
Then process results and if needed repeat as many times as you wish.
You don´t need them to understand the hows and whys, just answer some questions or explain their experience in their own words.
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Tjj226 - lacking an understanding of your expertise/ CV, and at the risk of insult, I think there’s rather much more to both being able to design/build decent audio products, and make a living at it, than can be summarized here.
Yes, definitely pursue your passion, just be prepared for a long learning curve - there are few overnight successes here- and have at least other income streams, or a winning powerball lottery ticket.
Yes, definitely pursue your passion, just be prepared for a long learning curve - there are few overnight successes here- and have at least other income streams, or a winning powerball lottery ticket.
Not to waste any opportunity, if the worst happens and the US no longer can do business with the PLA then anyone halfway rigged-up for production will be swamped with orders.
The trick will be modularity and easy substitution of assemblies and other parts.
Simply look at how many stereos were sold during the ten year Vietnam war. It was the golden age for sales of high dollar consumer gear.
Having a low volume well designed product that breaks even will at least keep your feet wet and is fun too.
Don't forget a stash of good program material on your HD.(strictly for demos of course)
Streaming sites may go the way of facebook.
The trick will be modularity and easy substitution of assemblies and other parts.
Simply look at how many stereos were sold during the ten year Vietnam war. It was the golden age for sales of high dollar consumer gear.
Having a low volume well designed product that breaks even will at least keep your feet wet and is fun too.
Don't forget a stash of good program material on your HD.(strictly for demos of course)
Streaming sites may go the way of facebook.
+1 to all of this.
Profitability is very hard when you are buying supplies for small runs. A big proportion of the costs are eaten by transformers, tubes and enclosures (especially out here in the wilderness!).
You need to figure out how much your time is worth and work that in to your costings as well.
Besides all the regs that have to be incorporated at your design stage, you need to consider the very important topic of Liability. That is, how will you protect yourself should the worst happen and someone gets a shock from the typically high voltages present within a tube amp (for example)? Business structure and indemnity insurance are the way to go but again, that takes $$$ from your pocket.
There is also the liability of providing a statutory warranty, whereby you can pretty much guarantee someone will short the outputs or component failure will leave you with a dead amp to fix at your cost.
There are so many things to consider above just making cool amps.
That's not to say that there aren't paths to success available, but have a real good look at the mountain of work ahead before you commit to forging your path.
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Not legally required but be prepared to lose everything in case of an incident.
That's probably the key point.
There may be local legislation to deal with though. For example here in Oz, the manufacture of electrical equipment is covered by a national standards document that details the minimum safety requirements. It is part of the consumer protection law and also differs by state.
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Just curious about your last paragraph: a young nothing to lose person can exactly do *what*?
Brother and I calibrated the sub-station breakers at numerous military bases and refineries. We were young, still married to our first wife and below municipality radar. We also calibrated and serviced Amtrak rail signaling eqpt.
Risk is part of a startup. It cannot be eliminated.
A good amplifier design would be safe for the consumer. It's part of the design ethic.
A startup would use the local laws to advantage. Ie 'used' gear is exempt from many laws. So, everything is 'used' and so on.
Tesla initially sold all autos as 'used' here in Texas.
On patents and IP, my current methodology uses novel circuits from 'expired patents'. You can even state its 'patented' and include the patent references.
I have about fourteen patents in force and/or on application. They are all assigned to three different corporations.
Risk is part of a startup. It cannot be eliminated.
A good amplifier design would be safe for the consumer. It's part of the design ethic.
A startup would use the local laws to advantage. Ie 'used' gear is exempt from many laws. So, everything is 'used' and so on.
Tesla initially sold all autos as 'used' here in Texas.
On patents and IP, my current methodology uses novel circuits from 'expired patents'. You can even state its 'patented' and include the patent references.
I have about fourteen patents in force and/or on application. They are all assigned to three different corporations.
Yes he/she is not encumbered with liability insurance and is able to risk operating outside if the law somewhat. Financial loss is minimal, and if incorporated a restart recovery is possible. The startup eventually purchases liability after reaching a sound footing. Brother and I purchased insurance in our third year.
All of this assumes no loans from banking system.
The current hurtle for a startup with little or no money here in Texas is agressive behavior local sales tax collectors. Actually they are private companies receiving commission on ratting out startups. They will freeze/seize bank accounts and so on. It's crazy.
All of this assumes no loans from banking system.
The current hurtle for a startup with little or no money here in Texas is agressive behavior local sales tax collectors. Actually they are private companies receiving commission on ratting out startups. They will freeze/seize bank accounts and so on. It's crazy.
No , here we have an ad valorem tax courtesy of the local crooks. That would be taxing your furniture and fixtures not to mention any inventory (even in your residence). This business tax is on top of your personal property taxes of same address.
The list of ancillary taxes is so long that most CPA cannot recite everything: its easier to fly under the radar.
My thesis: no one is in total compliance. Everyone in church at Sunday mass is breaking some law. Most are unknowing but still there so many laws no one can account for all. ie: lose or misplace your drivers license- get a replacement then find the lost license and put it in your pocket. You are guilty of class C misdemeanor (fine of up to $500) max 6 months in jail. And on and on....
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We have a "presumed earnings" tax here in Argentina.
AFIP, our IRS, couldn´t worry less about your selling cash in hand only, not issuing bills, etc.
They use "reverse engineering" Math and you must prove them wrong ... which is impossible.
They use different parameters to estimate your sales, actually calculate all of them and use the most damaging one.
They claim to have determined what percentage of their sales do shops use on different issues, so they apply reverse math to calculate your taxable "presumed earnings"
A small sampler:
* Rent: They say that a normal shop uses , say, 10% of earnings on rent, so paying U$1000 means you "must" have earned U$10000 ... or how could you afford it?
* electricity: shops spend 5% of earnings on it, so a U$500 bill makes you earning U$1000 in that month ... same thing.
and so on and on and on; other parameters are: shop surface, amount of employees , amount of tables in a Restaurant, etc.
You may REALLY sell ZERO in one Month ... and still pay tax on "presumed earnings"
AFIP, our IRS, couldn´t worry less about your selling cash in hand only, not issuing bills, etc.
They use "reverse engineering" Math and you must prove them wrong ... which is impossible.
They use different parameters to estimate your sales, actually calculate all of them and use the most damaging one.
They claim to have determined what percentage of their sales do shops use on different issues, so they apply reverse math to calculate your taxable "presumed earnings"
A small sampler:
* Rent: They say that a normal shop uses , say, 10% of earnings on rent, so paying U$1000 means you "must" have earned U$10000 ... or how could you afford it?
* electricity: shops spend 5% of earnings on it, so a U$500 bill makes you earning U$1000 in that month ... same thing.
and so on and on and on; other parameters are: shop surface, amount of employees , amount of tables in a Restaurant, etc.
You may REALLY sell ZERO in one Month ... and still pay tax on "presumed earnings"
I'm going to be the negative here. There is no money in it because its a cut throat business. If you plan to copy old Marshall designs past patent you have nothing but a dream. No one is going to buy a re-creation of a Marshall unless they are totally brain dead with an excess of wealth. You have overhead you have worker expense, parts costs, insurance and so forth. If for example your build cost was $400 you would have to sell it for over $1200.00 just to try to break even after all the costs were figured in.
The ONLY way I could see it possibly working would be to fund it from a good audio service business. The one I worked at over 25 years ago did 20K a month gross and I don't know of any shop making a real good go of it now days.
Put the money you wanted to invest into your 401K. Get a decent job and be content to read about audio gear in forums like this one and an occasional copy of an audio magazine.
The ONLY way I could see it possibly working would be to fund it from a good audio service business. The one I worked at over 25 years ago did 20K a month gross and I don't know of any shop making a real good go of it now days.
Put the money you wanted to invest into your 401K. Get a decent job and be content to read about audio gear in forums like this one and an occasional copy of an audio magazine.
Apart from the design side, the safety aspect needs looking at. Valve amps are full of dangerous voltages, satisfying your country's safety rules/laws will take some doing. Not to mention after sales support, marketing, taxes, accounts ad infinitum. You'll need a bizniss plan, cost analysis and all kinds of groovy things. Can't think of anything more likely to kill any enthusiasm for valve amplifiers than running a bizniss making and selling them. The days when Jim Marshall built his first amp are long gone; different world.
One other aspect occur's, namely Chinese imports; how you'd compete with those lads is anyone's guess. They are getting better at making decent low price valve guitar amps.
Another thing to be cogniscent of is the current trend for modelling amplifiers, which are used more and more in pro music.
Still if your young and full of beans have a go, do your research first though. Good luck.
Andy.
One other aspect occur's, namely Chinese imports; how you'd compete with those lads is anyone's guess. They are getting better at making decent low price valve guitar amps.
Another thing to be cogniscent of is the current trend for modelling amplifiers, which are used more and more in pro music.
Still if your young and full of beans have a go, do your research first though. Good luck.
Andy.
+1000. - well sort of. The best way to a business you actually want to do for enjoyment is to retire early. That is, have enough money on hand to pay ALL expenses for 30 years first.
Which is why your first order of business is to pay off all debt first before putting a bunch of money in the market. It may disappear overnight, but debts still remain. Any you’ll be pleasantly surprised how much money you do have to invest when monthly payments go away. Never put it all in one place - some of it goes under the mattress so it will still be there when the market crashes.
I saw 08 coming a mile away. I took $100k out of investments and paid off my house. Everybody thought I was stupid cashing in, and not leaving it in to grow. In 6 months that money would have been worth less than half - my 401k had only $42k left in it, and that’s all the savings I had. WaMu failed, but it didn’t affect me anymore. Even if my job evaporated, it would have been survivable.
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