For me the burning question to all of this is... Is Joe defending his explanation of what he hears, or is Joe defending his modeling work with the expectation to hear it?
I tell people all the time I have no doubt they hear what they hear, I just refute and reject 99% of why they think they're hearing it. Maybe Joe's speaker sounds absolutely fabulous, I don't know, but I do know if it does then Joe has reason to try to explain and defend the explanation (true or not). Sometimes we just need to accept something is good,; and if we can't move on then you need to deploy more variables to confirm why you think you're hearing what you do.
Frequency tilt? That's new to me. Is this something about using a leveler to set up the cables?
I have one. Maybe I ...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
No it is a well known problem. For cable tv they make reverse tilt filters. Even in loudspeaker cable it shows up. A ten gauge wire has very close to 1 ohm DC resistance per thousand feet, but at 20,000 hertz it is about 4 ohms for the same length. This is due to skin effect.
If you have an 8 ohm loudspeaker and 1,000 feet of cable you will find the frequency response is down by 6 dB at 20,000 hertz vs 20 hertz.
This has been discussed before and even Scott got it right!
.
Last edited:
Which I call out as a straight up lie John. Nothing I have posted supports such fiction. So why do you continue making false statements??
Like stating I know nothing about speakers. Blatently incorrect, so why say it??
Because you did..I will not allow lies to stand unquestioned, but rather, will point them out as what they are.
In fact, I do not call you one on a regular basis. Perhaps you can show us where I have done so?
You do understand that you are describing your own behavior right? and trying to divert. I point out specifically where you state falsehoods.
For me, what you do does not get old...it is an expectation, something I am used to you doing. So it really doesn't bother me.
I would of course prefer you not make false claims about me, and that would be the professional thing for you to do. I hope you can do that.
jn
ps..you do read your own posts, right?
pps. If you do not like being called out for lies, I can apologize. What would you prefer I call statements you make about me which are entirely fabricated and unsupported? I would be happy to use a different descriptor if you wish. Your call.
Last edited:
Or maybe your application is not sensitive to 5 microsecond ITD.. Tell me, in Yankee stadium, where is the sweet spot? Which seat? Or MSG?
Humans are sensitive to that level of ITD, but as I said before, I'm the messenger. And I don't listen to any soundstage to that level of discernment.
jn
I honestly don't know. His explanations are inconsistent, to the point that it is difficult to figure out where he goes wrong.
The only technical explanation I could shoehorn into what he is doing is the possibility of ITD stabilization. Perhaps his system is good enough that localization is impacted by what he does. Perhaps he tried it (despite the explanation being incorrect) and found a clearer soundstage.
So if he did succeed in cleaning up the soundstage a bit, his difficulty lies in trying to explain it. His explanations are incorrect, so I am trying to give him a reasonable one to pursue. In the past, I presented details on how to stabilize the soundstage by using low Z (rf) speaker cable with the attendant worry about high bandwidth amplifier oscillation, Joe's option does not have that worry.
jn
Last edited:
Hi everybody, yes, JN appears to know something about loudspeakers. He knows how to hook one up to an amp, for example, he has seen some primitive model of how a speaker motor works, which he can compare to other motors and coils in his work. However, has he actually designed a loudspeaker professionally? Does he know, and has he referenced any major design theory of loudspeakers? Has he ever done an extended measurement of a loudspeaker using professional tools? Perhaps he should tell us in detail what he has done. I certainly would not want to talk out of school, but just not recognizing Small or Thiele for their work in loudspeaker design tells us plenty.
Attachments
Last edited:
How about he designs one and then you have to listen to it. I don't care if he starts with already made drivers or not, or even premade boxes.
Pull apart time...
jn
ps..as always, fun..
An interesting fabrication John. Pray tell, where have I done that??
jn
ps..as always, fun..
Mr. Curl
Jneutron derided the connection of Dr. Thiele with the sayings of Joe, he didn’t questioned Dr. Thiele’s existense or work . Don’t mix things up (but you have made this up in your mind already)
And Jneutron is very polite as you attack him lately without keeping it professional, yes?
Also thank you for posting Dr. Theile’s pdf
George
Jneutron derided the connection of Dr. Thiele with the sayings of Joe, he didn’t questioned Dr. Thiele’s existense or work . Don’t mix things up (but you have made this up in your mind already)
And Jneutron is very polite as you attack him lately without keeping it professional, yes?
Also thank you for posting Dr. Theile’s pdf
George
I've been considering taking a recone kit and adding or modifying the vc winds to provide exact bifilar coils. Either 2 same guage, or the tap coil smaller and interstitial. I had considered my eminence sigma pro 18, but just can't deal with cutting it apart...There's a Rog Mogale 186 horn in my future...
Problem is, once I have done a recone, who would measure it in a box with audio equipment. Me measuring the inductance to 9 decimal places vs coil position locked or dynamic doesn't give distortion characteristics. And I would be using west 105 resin, so it wouldn't be good for high power as it's glass transition temperature is not geared for speaker coil use.
And I'm currently having a heck of a time cutting a 20 tooth nylon gear 7mm diameter.. man, what a learning curve...you've no idea how deep the plastic chips are at my feet now.. tomorrow, run number 4 and 5. but this time, with a live center supporting the work.
jn
If we are discussing changes in localization due to settling time of a long cable loudspeaker system, yes an apparent position shift probably would show up in the empty arena testing in seats close to and between a pair of loudspeakers. In actual use any air motion (wind or even HVAC) would cause changes greater than 5uS.
Now as your supposed expertise in magnetics and loudspeakers..... Hospitality Electronics Supply carries glue, cones, surrounds and voice coils. So the ball of proof is now in your court.
Last edited:
It would be far easier to just buy the d##m gear. 50 bucks for five, or the whole regulator assembly for 50.
But anybody can do that!!! Me, in for a milling fixture at 300 dollars, various plastic, brass, aluminum, hardened tool blanks, live center.. By the time I learn how to do it well, I've probably made a 500 dollar gear. Ain't gonna learn if I don't try. I ain't in it for the money..
That's only half the battle. What magnetic structure? I can easily make my own vc, but I need dimensions and tolerances for the gap it goes into.If we are discussing changes in localization due to settling time of a long cable loudspeaker system, yes an apparent position shift probably would show up in the empty arena testing in seats close to and between a pair of loudspeakers. In actual use any air motion (wind or even HVAC) would cause changes greater than 5uS.
Now as your supposed expertise in magnetics and loudspeakers..... Hospitality Electronics Supply carries glue, cones, surrounds and voice coils. So the ball of proof is now in your court.
Also, I am thinking about the former.. Does anybody know if an IR 50 watt laser can kerf 5 mil aluminum? I know copper is out as it reflects, but I was thinking of a slot pattern on the former to eliminate eddy current drag, a friend has a CNC laser.
I'll check that source, thanks. All the recone kits I googled were 100 bucks give or take, why waste my money on that when I can waste it on ten dollar gear efforts.
Jn
Hi Jn
Not sure how soundstage and localization came into the picture?
Note perhaps a softening of the tone? That would be good all round.
No, in my mind, as I have now stated a number of times, this is about distortion.
I think the reason that this has all happened in the last few days was when Richard Marsh mentioned the 8R resistor in parallel with an 8 Ohm speaker and I knew exactly what he meant. You can hear what that resistor does.
It also seems that many speaker designers (without telling) include parallel resistors inside commercial speakers, but other designers vehemently dislikes it, they consider it bad form. I went to see Ulrik Schmidt, SB Acoustics driver designer and brought up the point with him. He too said he knew speaker manufacturers were doing it, hush hush!
But it is very wasteful of power. It is a crude, but it does something. But the speaker industry don't want to talk about it openly. Me? I don't use parallel resistors, but EQ the current phase angle. Others think I do it to flatten the impedance, but in fact it is the current I am looking at.
So hopefully that will give you some context and maybe give you an idea where I am coming from.
So many people have heard that simple 8 Ohm resistor trick (it is even mentioned when using a Nelson Pass amp in a recent issue of Stereophile, using 16 Ohm with 16 Ohm speakers).
I am convinced that what we are hearing is that the amplifier's current is EQ'd and that it leads to lower distortion.
But how? You cannot ignore it when in a room full of people heard it. Even putting an 18 Ohm series impedance (a switchable Hypex NCore amplifier modified by Menno Vanderveen) at ETF17 (held in Denmark) and the whole room heard the amplifier being switched back and forth. I told Menno I believed the improvement was caused by a reduced current phase angle of the amplifier. He did not disagree. He is looking for the answer to this question too.
So please, everything I have posted in recent days (and even further back) is entirely down to one thing:
Distortion, and what is the mechanism for what we are hearing?
I believe that there is a rational explanation and if we can find it (join the search), then we shall all be better for it.
John is right, my world is very different from yours. And so is his I suppose. But the world needs guys like you too. But I am more a Faraday kind of guy, maybe you are more the Maxwell kind. Yet they became close friends.
Some quote Dylan, but I will quote Lennon: "Come together."
[Friday here, needs to make myself scarce and get to work, not yet retired.]
Trying to calm down people that I respect or/and like in this forum, which are fighting together, I would like to make a diversion and ask a question that interest-me. A serious question about something I never tried: to drive an electro-dynamic speakers in current.
As all the speakers I had worked with seems to have been optimized to offer a flat acoustic response curve (as much as possible) with a flat *voltage* response curve, driving them in current will imply to correct the response curve in order to have the same current at each frequency out of a current source than with the voltage source. or, if you prefer, to have the same power at each frequency between the 2 amps. I hope I'm clear and you will agree with this working hypothesis.
Now, i've read and been told that the speaker will produce less distortion with the current source than with the voltage source. Why ? (What are the physical factors at work ?)
What is the difference between the two amps. I believe the damping factor. Right ?
So what about the impact on the waterfall ?
I apologize if my questions seems trivial, or ridiculous, I try to be virgin about the things I never experienced and learn as much as possible.
As all the speakers I had worked with seems to have been optimized to offer a flat acoustic response curve (as much as possible) with a flat *voltage* response curve, driving them in current will imply to correct the response curve in order to have the same current at each frequency out of a current source than with the voltage source. or, if you prefer, to have the same power at each frequency between the 2 amps. I hope I'm clear and you will agree with this working hypothesis.
Now, i've read and been told that the speaker will produce less distortion with the current source than with the voltage source. Why ? (What are the physical factors at work ?)
What is the difference between the two amps. I believe the damping factor. Right ?
So what about the impact on the waterfall ?
I apologize if my questions seems trivial, or ridiculous, I try to be virgin about the things I never experienced and learn as much as possible.
Last edited:
If they are not trivial to you, then they are not trivial.
I will come back and make some comments later. But quickly, it is not about damping factor, and it is not so much about current drive versus voltage drive. I design amplifiers that typically have 2-5 Ohm output impedances (solid state front and tube output stages). So I do not lean towards straight-out current drive and more towards voltage. More later...
At the risk of being flamed to death:
The distortion comes from the non-linearity of the loudspeaker motor design.
Many patents have been applied either from engineering an improved voice coil assembly or the implementation of a feedback mechanism.
Some engineering type folks were trying to explain and provide soultions to this age old problem with the loudspeaker transducer several hundred pages ago.
JBL's differential drive transducer is one example of an engineering approach.
Trying to fix the distortion mechanism via the crossover is just fixing the symptom.
The distortion comes from the non-linearity of the loudspeaker motor design.
Many patents have been applied either from engineering an improved voice coil assembly or the implementation of a feedback mechanism.
Some engineering type folks were trying to explain and provide soultions to this age old problem with the loudspeaker transducer several hundred pages ago.
JBL's differential drive transducer is one example of an engineering approach.
Trying to fix the distortion mechanism via the crossover is just fixing the symptom.
Switching amplifiers too? I figure anyone could hear an 18 Ohm resistor switched in and out. You've departed from speakers again BTW. There exist many amplifiers that have virtually immeasurable change in distortion with output current phase angle (within reasonable limits certainly those of almost any speaker).
Last edited:
Hi,
I often do simple Proof of Concept tests without refinements. What JR has done is a refinement. I was just curious to know if I am thinking on the right path or not. i did that maybe 15-20 years ago. There was even one Monster cable which included a parallel R at the cable end connector.
-RNM
-------------------------------
I think the reason that this has all happened in the last few days was when Richard Marsh mentioned the 8R resistor in parallel with an 8 Ohm speaker and I knew exactly what he meant. You can hear what that resistor does.
So hopefully that will give you some context and maybe give you an idea where I am coming from. The parallel 8 Ohm was one of those -- some 15 or more years ago I tried it.
"So many people have heard that simple 8 Ohm resistor trick (it is even mentioned when using a Nelson Pass amp in a recent issue of Stereophile, using 16 Ohm with 16 Ohm speakers).
-----------------------------
THx-RNMarsh
I often do simple Proof of Concept tests without refinements. What JR has done is a refinement. I was just curious to know if I am thinking on the right path or not. i did that maybe 15-20 years ago. There was even one Monster cable which included a parallel R at the cable end connector.
-RNM
-------------------------------
I think the reason that this has all happened in the last few days was when Richard Marsh mentioned the 8R resistor in parallel with an 8 Ohm speaker and I knew exactly what he meant. You can hear what that resistor does.
So hopefully that will give you some context and maybe give you an idea where I am coming from. The parallel 8 Ohm was one of those -- some 15 or more years ago I tried it.
"So many people have heard that simple 8 Ohm resistor trick (it is even mentioned when using a Nelson Pass amp in a recent issue of Stereophile, using 16 Ohm with 16 Ohm speakers).
-----------------------------
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.