It's a fine line with many. The debate of LP verses CD causes many to take sides in a similar fashion.
Often what I write is to see if someone will step forward with new ideas. They don't have to be correct. Just stated and the reasons why. Often they are correct except not my way of listening. I remember sayiing to someone his choice was not exactly as music sounds in real life. He said to me when he came home from work destroyed by the day did he want it that real? My answer was he should have two hi fi's. Coming home version and better mood version. I would have said Quad ESL 57 or Celestion SL6 as universal and right for him. Hi fi magazines I think took him away from those choices and nothing they liked was liked by him. He blamed me for what they wrote! At the time the universal hi fi system for most was NAD 3020 with Heybrook HB2 speakers. Front end was LP12 , Rega, Dual 505. A few would buy LP12 Rega R200 ( Not RB, Jelco ? ) arm and Rega R100 PU. I think Paul Benson promoted that idea? I have sold LP12 and NAD a few times. It really worked. I suspect the NAD is much better than many things five times it's price. Some said they would upgrade when money allowed. From memory none ever did, yet visited just to say hello and how happy they were. LP12's in those days were almost good value.
My Marantz CD67 Flying Calf DAC and own PSU can beat my LP12 at times. I still find more than 2 hours of it too much when CD. Never lasted 10 minutes with others. I have the music on if so. I just don't listen. LP is more like it's four AM and must go to bed. Most CD sounds like OK FM. Reason is FM itself uses better CD players that most own. The FM process will not take that advantage away. I am really happy with my CD sound. If I have doubts it is the mastering of many discs.
I bought about 100 LP's for about $127 in Baltimore. My wife had been told she might have cancer again. A friend saw the buying as a reaction as nearly all came from the reject bin at 95 cents. They all get played. One or two are better than any 180 g version. RCA Living Stereo Belefonte two LP's $6,95. A played to death Belefonte for 95 cents still is magic.
A friend made me a DAC to CD player cable. Very high grade 75 ohm satelite down feed. The screen connected Belden style and a 1 mm enamelled wire as the cold feed. Some how the wire inside the sceen. The screen at the send end. I have a good cable so didn't really want a new one. There was a subtel difference which I think would be taken to be better hi fi. I only say it at all because it sounded as if the bass was less. As my speakers are EQ'ed bass is whatever I want it to be. I very much doubt this difference could be measured by tests we " choose " to believe are correct. Nordost's tests they sponsored might. The industry quickly made sure no one was interested. I know because I made sure of it ( they annoyed me ). For once I joined the other side as even I like things the way they are. The test was an adapted RAF test set. Just turning music back into digits and doing a digital null with the source. Nordost claimed to be able to measure the table under the CD player. I suspect they could. Time domain stuff. I simplify to give a very rough idea. I was removed from the room as I asked too many difficult questions. The RAF guy and me got on very well as I think he had far more to say than Nordost wanted to say. I got thrown out when I said how could we know the null was correct ( maths discussed ) with all the factors in play. Myself, I think the RAF guy had covered that. He wasn't allowed to speak as I suspect the need for more money and future improvements would be discussed. I know to call this a null test is not exactly right. In the spirit of a null test if you like. If they ever get this right many will have to think again and eat their words. Shaw to Wilde " I wish I had said that " Wilde to Shaw " Don't worry, you will. " Many say they always knew it but had no way to tell. Quantum style debate comes to Audio.
http://www.nordost.com/downloads/NewApproachesToAudioMeasurement.pdf
Often what I write is to see if someone will step forward with new ideas. They don't have to be correct. Just stated and the reasons why. Often they are correct except not my way of listening. I remember sayiing to someone his choice was not exactly as music sounds in real life. He said to me when he came home from work destroyed by the day did he want it that real? My answer was he should have two hi fi's. Coming home version and better mood version. I would have said Quad ESL 57 or Celestion SL6 as universal and right for him. Hi fi magazines I think took him away from those choices and nothing they liked was liked by him. He blamed me for what they wrote! At the time the universal hi fi system for most was NAD 3020 with Heybrook HB2 speakers. Front end was LP12 , Rega, Dual 505. A few would buy LP12 Rega R200 ( Not RB, Jelco ? ) arm and Rega R100 PU. I think Paul Benson promoted that idea? I have sold LP12 and NAD a few times. It really worked. I suspect the NAD is much better than many things five times it's price. Some said they would upgrade when money allowed. From memory none ever did, yet visited just to say hello and how happy they were. LP12's in those days were almost good value.
My Marantz CD67 Flying Calf DAC and own PSU can beat my LP12 at times. I still find more than 2 hours of it too much when CD. Never lasted 10 minutes with others. I have the music on if so. I just don't listen. LP is more like it's four AM and must go to bed. Most CD sounds like OK FM. Reason is FM itself uses better CD players that most own. The FM process will not take that advantage away. I am really happy with my CD sound. If I have doubts it is the mastering of many discs.
I bought about 100 LP's for about $127 in Baltimore. My wife had been told she might have cancer again. A friend saw the buying as a reaction as nearly all came from the reject bin at 95 cents. They all get played. One or two are better than any 180 g version. RCA Living Stereo Belefonte two LP's $6,95. A played to death Belefonte for 95 cents still is magic.
A friend made me a DAC to CD player cable. Very high grade 75 ohm satelite down feed. The screen connected Belden style and a 1 mm enamelled wire as the cold feed. Some how the wire inside the sceen. The screen at the send end. I have a good cable so didn't really want a new one. There was a subtel difference which I think would be taken to be better hi fi. I only say it at all because it sounded as if the bass was less. As my speakers are EQ'ed bass is whatever I want it to be. I very much doubt this difference could be measured by tests we " choose " to believe are correct. Nordost's tests they sponsored might. The industry quickly made sure no one was interested. I know because I made sure of it ( they annoyed me ). For once I joined the other side as even I like things the way they are. The test was an adapted RAF test set. Just turning music back into digits and doing a digital null with the source. Nordost claimed to be able to measure the table under the CD player. I suspect they could. Time domain stuff. I simplify to give a very rough idea. I was removed from the room as I asked too many difficult questions. The RAF guy and me got on very well as I think he had far more to say than Nordost wanted to say. I got thrown out when I said how could we know the null was correct ( maths discussed ) with all the factors in play. Myself, I think the RAF guy had covered that. He wasn't allowed to speak as I suspect the need for more money and future improvements would be discussed. I know to call this a null test is not exactly right. In the spirit of a null test if you like. If they ever get this right many will have to think again and eat their words. Shaw to Wilde " I wish I had said that " Wilde to Shaw " Don't worry, you will. " Many say they always knew it but had no way to tell. Quantum style debate comes to Audio.
http://www.nordost.com/downloads/NewApproachesToAudioMeasurement.pdf
Hi Nigel,
I have massive concerns over how Nordost applied the test. The technical criteria used for choosing a CD player seems to be simply the most expensive machine they could lay their hands on. In fact, I don't think any attempt was made to assess how accurate these machines were. Very often, high priced CD players have their analog response monkeyed with so that they "sound better". I would hazard a guess that most of the difference files consist of the effects of the DAC output filtering. If you look, it is mostly the high frequency information that causes a difference.
There are two ways to deal with this problem. Play both through the identical output filter, then you could compare them. Otherwise, remove the filter from a top - ish end mass marketed player that has been recently aligned - properly. Then the output could have the sampling waveform removed, leaving you with a more accurate signal to difference the original with.
That entire test has too many variables to draw any conclusions from for one. For two, modern testing equipment has far more resolution than we need to worry about when working on audio equipment. We can measure a lot more than a human can hear. Just drop into any top lab using Keysight or other top level testing equipment and see.
The equipment selection process fails to address easily recognized problems, and fails that issue twice! First, let's choose an accurate, top performing CD player. But why even use a CD player? We can record to solid state memory these days and that avoids all kinds of problems in playback. Then make certain that the playback device (SS memory now) doesn't have any analog filtering that might cause differences. I humbly suggest doing everything in the digital domain.
Once you do in fact have all variables under control, as in a proper scientific test, then you can draw conclusions and present your findings to the world. What was done here is insulting to the idea of a scientific test, leaving so many wide open variables as to be a bad joke.
-Chris
I have massive concerns over how Nordost applied the test. The technical criteria used for choosing a CD player seems to be simply the most expensive machine they could lay their hands on. In fact, I don't think any attempt was made to assess how accurate these machines were. Very often, high priced CD players have their analog response monkeyed with so that they "sound better". I would hazard a guess that most of the difference files consist of the effects of the DAC output filtering. If you look, it is mostly the high frequency information that causes a difference.
There are two ways to deal with this problem. Play both through the identical output filter, then you could compare them. Otherwise, remove the filter from a top - ish end mass marketed player that has been recently aligned - properly. Then the output could have the sampling waveform removed, leaving you with a more accurate signal to difference the original with.
That entire test has too many variables to draw any conclusions from for one. For two, modern testing equipment has far more resolution than we need to worry about when working on audio equipment. We can measure a lot more than a human can hear. Just drop into any top lab using Keysight or other top level testing equipment and see.
The equipment selection process fails to address easily recognized problems, and fails that issue twice! First, let's choose an accurate, top performing CD player. But why even use a CD player? We can record to solid state memory these days and that avoids all kinds of problems in playback. Then make certain that the playback device (SS memory now) doesn't have any analog filtering that might cause differences. I humbly suggest doing everything in the digital domain.
Once you do in fact have all variables under control, as in a proper scientific test, then you can draw conclusions and present your findings to the world. What was done here is insulting to the idea of a scientific test, leaving so many wide open variables as to be a bad joke.
-Chris
I got thrown out because the RAF guy and myself were going way over the head of the presenter Roy Gregory. He didn't have a clue what we were saying and thought I was being critical. The more I talked to this ex RAF man the more he seemed genuine. He didn't seem in the least bit interested if it helped Nordost I suspect. It was like I ran to the rescue of the guy and was shot by his buddy. Roy had the neuve to say " Ladies and Gentlemen , Nigel is a highly eccentric and well loved member of the audio world etc ". Roy is not without his own eccentricities. If I read the room correctly they wanted me and Roy to shut up and listen to the inventor. I nearly got the guy to tell the whole story. Roy closed the presntation at this point. Everyone looked bemused. Was I angry ? You bet I was. So I gathered up all the brains together and found I had many friends who did not want to support this idea. I can't name them as they would need asking first.
All this to one side. In principle what they are saying can not be wrong. I can't afford an Audio Precission test set although there is one I can use. It didn't really matter. All I did was find a way to test in the new era. This in itself is not the point and I did show that a year or so ago. The point is it made me very comfortable in the digital analogue no mans land. What it taught me is what this guy was saying must if done with care be true.
We have been here before. The Carver amp seemed not to like high capacitance cables which some people liked the look of. I have for years used 0.6 mm cable if asking. Once this was understood Carver sugested he could clone the sound of any amplifier using his amp as a starting point. He would be locked into a hotel room with a suitcase of parts and test gear. By null test clone the amps they brought. Carver I seem to remember won the bet. If I also remember Carver said the other designers had better ears than him and cloning took away that advantage. I think there might be a grain of truth in that. Exact bandwidth (etcetera) might well be unique for any amp design. As a quickly arrived at example NAD and Proton. The Proton whilst OK is not the same. Daft as they made the NAD for years. If you listen to a Proton I don't think you would ever guess they were from the same factory. That's crazy. Only the designer truely knew his amp. The drones didn't. As someone said long before Proton brand. " NAD,A pile of junk that works".
There is a very cheap power amp. It might be called LM380. At the time it was that or nothing for a little project. If memory is right my brother did 3 bandwidth limits. When done one could not think it was the same amp. More open and seemed more extended. I suspect it was a happy amp. I think we put a Zobel on it as the bigger deal.
If you look at the Nordost snapshots the graphs are enough alike to think they say something. It must be remebered that this guy was testing aircraft for years and has good experiance of how things look. The vibration of the aircraft shows if the life of a component is used up. It will save money as the component might be past the usual replacement date. The aircraft has a signature, it changing says look out.
The stangest thing about this is I warned Mr Gregory that if Nordost have some validity in how things work it could be cloned for pennies. As Nordost wanted to sell the test gear that would be their money stream. I quickly assembled the techincial elite and said if it caught on we should do our own. We agreed and said it could be Freeware if we did. I did see something from this I didn't exspect. Most understood exactly the dangers. Most said they would prefer to stick with what we have. Can you imagine if some Chinese outfit was making a $10 cable to out Nordost the real Nordost. Also that a Freeware package caused this. That would be a meal served very cold.
I should be working so errors and the like please forgive.
All this to one side. In principle what they are saying can not be wrong. I can't afford an Audio Precission test set although there is one I can use. It didn't really matter. All I did was find a way to test in the new era. This in itself is not the point and I did show that a year or so ago. The point is it made me very comfortable in the digital analogue no mans land. What it taught me is what this guy was saying must if done with care be true.
We have been here before. The Carver amp seemed not to like high capacitance cables which some people liked the look of. I have for years used 0.6 mm cable if asking. Once this was understood Carver sugested he could clone the sound of any amplifier using his amp as a starting point. He would be locked into a hotel room with a suitcase of parts and test gear. By null test clone the amps they brought. Carver I seem to remember won the bet. If I also remember Carver said the other designers had better ears than him and cloning took away that advantage. I think there might be a grain of truth in that. Exact bandwidth (etcetera) might well be unique for any amp design. As a quickly arrived at example NAD and Proton. The Proton whilst OK is not the same. Daft as they made the NAD for years. If you listen to a Proton I don't think you would ever guess they were from the same factory. That's crazy. Only the designer truely knew his amp. The drones didn't. As someone said long before Proton brand. " NAD,A pile of junk that works".
There is a very cheap power amp. It might be called LM380. At the time it was that or nothing for a little project. If memory is right my brother did 3 bandwidth limits. When done one could not think it was the same amp. More open and seemed more extended. I suspect it was a happy amp. I think we put a Zobel on it as the bigger deal.
If you look at the Nordost snapshots the graphs are enough alike to think they say something. It must be remebered that this guy was testing aircraft for years and has good experiance of how things look. The vibration of the aircraft shows if the life of a component is used up. It will save money as the component might be past the usual replacement date. The aircraft has a signature, it changing says look out.
The stangest thing about this is I warned Mr Gregory that if Nordost have some validity in how things work it could be cloned for pennies. As Nordost wanted to sell the test gear that would be their money stream. I quickly assembled the techincial elite and said if it caught on we should do our own. We agreed and said it could be Freeware if we did. I did see something from this I didn't exspect. Most understood exactly the dangers. Most said they would prefer to stick with what we have. Can you imagine if some Chinese outfit was making a $10 cable to out Nordost the real Nordost. Also that a Freeware package caused this. That would be a meal served very cold.
I should be working so errors and the like please forgive.
BTW guys the Nordost test was rather good and it was possible to hear some improvements. Ones that if costing $300 total might be OK. The almost universal thing is I know people can not hear differences when being sold to. It's written all over their faces. It's not very different to being sold Time-share holidays.
My friend is a product of 70's .Perhaps with that cost was better an industry construction ,like other amplifiers,Accuphase p600,Yamaha MX 1000 ecc.If look inside the XX you see an amatorial product ,perhaps an exercise of tecnology in 70's.Don't be surprised for the 12 transistor in plastic of final stage.Threshold has double number.Today after 40 years the technology has made giant steps.If you find an old citation xx ,you must change all condensers and the cost is high .Transistor like 2sc2774 are difficult to find.Now from the analog we changed in digital era.The old car is good to see but the new is better.
--My friend the circuit in hybric pcb ,that Miller talks ,is a source corrent.The circuit is good as it is also.In the diagrams appear only the input filter,the supply power and the lamp status indications and ofcourse the 'Hybric' heart .It is not the power stage ,the zobel circuit and some part in input pcb.Unfortunatly Mr otala is death and more information we can have only from mr MILLER or the japonese engineer .Another solution are to have many photos of pcb power boards up-down and reveal the circuit.Perhaps from some service center.Its crazy after 35 years , we can have the circuit!.From a photo of component side i can see two versions of power realisation.The last has 4(for) electrolitics in the angles.The circuit appears simple and i see many attention to thermal and RF distorsion.Is a 1980 design and if i speak for that years this power perhaps is the best .In that year the others was Marantz mx1000,yamaha Mx 10000,accouphase P600 and the revolutionaries Sansui P2301 and acoustat tnt220. Thanks...
Happy Christmas everyone. I just switched on my old Armstong 625 kitchen radio and thought " I'm only liking this because it has distortion ". Worse still is it sounds like music. Dejan you like the Armstrong and food so thought of you.
My daughter requested chicken and what a good choice. Three types of potato, sprouts, brocoli, carrots, stuffing, pigs in blankets ( sausages in bacon ), triffle ( made by me with 1/4 litre Fino Sherry ). Champagne, Proseco, White Burgundy, and NZ Sauvignon Blanc. Port and chese. Christmas pudding also. That's all for sharing so for the sake of my head not all of it. I forgot, Gin and Tonic. I will use a small finger of Gin.
All the best to all.
My daughter requested chicken and what a good choice. Three types of potato, sprouts, brocoli, carrots, stuffing, pigs in blankets ( sausages in bacon ), triffle ( made by me with 1/4 litre Fino Sherry ). Champagne, Proseco, White Burgundy, and NZ Sauvignon Blanc. Port and chese. Christmas pudding also. That's all for sharing so for the sake of my head not all of it. I forgot, Gin and Tonic. I will use a small finger of Gin.
All the best to all.
I don't know which Armstrong model that is, Nige, but it's true, I did like an Armstrong receiver in my day, Looked a bit like a Bang & Olufsen design, only it was a wooden case with a black fascia. Toroidal transformer inside. And no matter what the measured paper spec said, it sounded really good to me, easy on the ears and a pleasure to listen to. Sounded way better than the typical fare of the day from Japan, desite their usually better spec sheet.
And season's greetings to one and all.
Local custom, which I would strongly advise, is to cover the floor with all the coin change you have. It's supposed to improve your revenues. You're supposed to leave it on the floor until January 2.
It's all on the table and looks good. Just had some sad news. A young man I know with > 160 IQ jumped out of the window. 3 floors up. It seems he will walk again. Can he come live with me he asks. He won the all USA spelling competition when young. G W Bush gave him the prize, he did it to impress a girl at school who wasn't. He admits it caused him to fail in later life. A friend and I got him into Oxford doing maths, he walked out as " it wasn't who he was". He would have made PHD without thinking. His father worked at Apple in the pioneering days and did not like Mr J, his father is very robotic . I had to be firm and say I am out of my depth so can not do it. Hey ho it's Christmas. Sean was teaching me Firme when he was 16. He hadn't learnt it, he just infered it. I gave him the bones of the ideas and he in an instant said how it must work. I genuinely think he had never heard it before. I will see him on the 29th.
In these situation I have learnt I am not the one to solve it. I am actually optimitic about this . He is said to be OK and might just get the help he needs.
In these situation I have learnt I am not the one to solve it. I am actually optimitic about this . He is said to be OK and might just get the help he needs.
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AndrewT,
The secret in Ireland (where many Scottish customs are still extant) was to put out the smallest denomination coins....the old Farthings with a wren bird on them were perfect. (Said to be a 'method' from Aberdeen.
) When you said "yo've left the money" the response was usually "God Bless you Sur, but isn't it more use to you than us".
Happy Christmas!
The secret in Ireland (where many Scottish customs are still extant) was to put out the smallest denomination coins....the old Farthings with a wren bird on them were perfect. (Said to be a 'method' from Aberdeen.
) When you said "yo've left the money" the response was usually "God Bless you Sur, but isn't it more use to you than us". Happy Christmas!
That mut be a uniquely Scottish dilemma, Andrew. That question neve even occured to me.
Try it locally, but bring the rope you need to hang yourself with you, that would be a social suicide like no other I can think of locally. It would illustrate the deed of social ostrachism perfectly.
AndrewT,
The secret in Ireland (where many Scottish customs are still extant) was to put out the smallest denomination coins....the old Farthings with a wren bird on them were perfect. (Said to be a 'method' from Aberdeen.
Happy Christmas!
And people ask me why I have such empathy for the Celts. The Irish are, in my view, irresistebly mischeivous and witty I don't see how is it possible not to love them.
The older I am, the more similarities between the Irish and the Serbs I notice and the easier it becomes to understand why busses of Irish football fans arriving for a game somehow always "gets lost" and stays in for another two or three days. Like 8 out of 10 busses. Unfortunately, not often enough. And the Scots are not far behind. Also not often enough.
Locally, there's a band called "Orthox Celts" which does only Irish music, and they NEVER fail to fill up the music hall. Not once!
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